The fight was SUPER glitched. The argument for it being mathematically impossible still holds up.
If you read Ion’s post he actually makes a
pretty strong case. It is probably doable nowadays, but mostly because the playerbase would find ways to cheese it.
even with the ability to explode him in a single vuln phase? I don’t think so. It’s literally about surviving till that point.
If we can prevent 20 people dying to random bullcrap before the vulnerable phase he’ll 100% die. I do think it is possible, but it won’t be as trivial as “nuke everything down” if one evading claw means one dead healer per burrow until it gets under control again.
I’m willing to bet it will be closer to hard mode hakkar than to post-nerf C’thun in terms of numbers needed.
I want to bash my head against that guy, to be honest.
Classic doesn’t really have progression raiding, and I think it’s one of the few flaws in the game. I wish they would turn world buffs off inside raids and buff content, like every good private server did.
Wouldnt really do much. The content isnt hard no matter how much you try to neuter it. Theyd have to make artificial challenges, because 15 years has left us more prepared than ever. There is nothign new to uncover atm
There is hidden complexity in Classic’s raiding, and the only thing it needs to appear is bigger numbers everywhere. What happens when adds appear in Nefarian and the mages are out of mana? What happens when you need 2 aggro tank swaps to kill Vael?
What happens when getting crit by Vael and then getting breathed on means a dead tank? What happens is warriors will have to wear a shield at all times to avoid getting crit.
Which lowers TPS.
Which means the fight goes on for much longer.
Which means less hps as healers die from burning adrenaline.
Which means the constant AoE Vael does can overwhelm the raid group.
All of this was faced by groups when BWL originally opened. They hadn’t had 15 years of experience to determine how to do the maximum possible amount of damage. They didn’t have Fury warriors as the fury tree didn’t even have Bloodthirst. Their tanks were most likely arms/prot and either using a slow one-hander or two-hand tanking. They didn’t have months to farm MC, and the game evolved so quickly they couldn’t reliably identify the BiS items in time for the new raid. There wasn’t savage gladiator chain, or bloodmail boots or banthok sash. Gear didn’t have as much spell damage, spell crit or spell hit. Would they need FR for BWL? Nobody knew. If yes, how much of it?
I fought pre-nerf C’Thun. There’s no way it’s getting beat like that. It’s not a matter of knowing more about the fight and the game, it’s simply not doable. The tentacles simply aren’t killable fast enough, they spawn too fast and in places that they can’t be killed.
It’s not a matter of they nerfed the encounter. It was horribly bugged and they fixed the bugs.
Now, should C’Thun be buffed a bit? Sure, I can go with that. Give it a 20% boost for a week or two, then 10%, then normal.
I’d also support releasing the pre-nerf C’Thun on some sort of test server so people can try it there. Just not on a release server.
Kind of?
Of course there were some guilds 1 shotting everything and steamrolling BWL night 1. Dont see that changing WBs or not
Many of the rest of us already went through these challenges. We wiped on Vael and Firemaw. We progressed a lot, if not all, of BWL without them. Its been a push over raid WBs or not because we knew everything going in and had all the strategies laid out before we walked through the doors.
I think more of it is as you mentioned the rampant changes we’ve seen from the playerbase over that time period. Retail and Pservers has created players who suck the marrow out of potential dps and its shown up to classic.
To me WBs are a fun luxury that keep the raid fresh the 20th time through. To others they seem to be something much more
On prog day we lost our world buffs on vael, still cleared BWL faster than most guilds on our server are clearing it today.
Had this happen, it was manageable.
A shield won’t stop you being crit, it helps push you towards uncrittible but at the end of the day it’s some block and armor.
Then you bring a bear.
Your issues reside in the fact that a 15 year old game won’t be theory crafted to oblivion. It has been and even a bug probably won’t stop us wafflestomping AQ into the mud.
Removing world buffs just slows down raid night.
Ion wasn’t raiding when wars were doing 1500 dps, pre-nerf cthun would still be a joke
Here’s a perfect example of everything wrong with the pre-nerf C’thun crowd. He reads probably 1-2 posts in this thread, and completely skips over the fact that C’thun was BUGGED. Your 1500 DPS Warrior can’t kill a tentacle that spawned in the wall. A level 120 Mythic Ny’alotha geared toon can’t kill a tentacle that spawned in the wall.
Ion couldn’t kill hard-mode hakkar with full naxx gear.
He died in <5m of ZG opening in classic.
The difference in dps is absolutely huge and that wouldn’t matter at all. Pre-nerf cthun would probably die within a few hours of aq40 opening.
Unnerfed C’thun might die quickly. It might not.
But for 99% of guilds it doesn’t matter. Someone is going to clear Naxx within 3 hours of release. Naxx will still be challenging for the majority of the playerbase.
Probably not going to happen simply because there are several pretty serious gear checks in there. You need gear from other Naxx bosses in order to do all of Naxx. It’ll take a few times through to get some of the stuff to advance.
This wasn’t true for MC, BWL, or ZG because they were released in Classic with all the buffs, nerfs, and changes of patch 1.12 - unlike when they were released in Vanilla. For example, I believe BWL was released on patch 1.6 in Vanilla. At the time there were only 8 debuff slots on mobs, in Classic it is 16 and that’s a huge difference! And there are a ton more important differences if you look at the patch notes, talent trees, and such.
Naxx was released with patch 1.11 so being at patch 1.12 isn’t that much different. Now, I do believe Naxx will get cleared a lot faster and by more in Classic than in Vanilla but I expect the first clear to take a few weeks, not 3 hours.
People were pulling patchwerk killing DPS in pre-raid BiS.
Saph frost resistance is about the biggest gear check in the place, and I’m pretty sure people could cobble enough together now without gimping their longevity.
The hardest part will be cobbling together enough warriors for some guilds and getting them the fish boss trinket from ZG to bypass the taunt resist mechanic on 4H.
pre C’thun was mostly impossible due to bugs.
like mobs you cant target lol.
soooo if you want a boss you cant kill because of bugs, not skill. then thats stupid.
for the duration of shield block with reasonable gear you are actually crit and crush immune shield block is 75% chance to block on top of what ever you get from gear
oh no challange in a raid how dare they not one shot every boss D:
well it’s a good thing most raids now have 20 warriors then
The first clear will happen week 1, its just a question of if its a first night clear or 2nd night