The frustrating thing isn’t that wrongdoings by the Alliance are brushed under the rug, it’s that there is such a double standard in the way Blizzard presents the narrative.
Teldrassil was terrible. It was a monstrous war crime, and far worse than what the Alliance do in Lordaeron or Dazar’alor.
And the narrative makes sure the player knows it. The Alliance player, for example, is tasked with rescuing civilians from the inferno, and forced to confront the reality that they will fail to save most of the people. And the Horde player is constantly reminded of their faction’s villainy, even by their own NPCs. In fact, the consequences for Teldrassil are driving the Horde narrative this expansion, with the faction being split between Sylvanas and Saurfang.
Contrast with, for example, Undercity and Tirisfal Glades. Here, the narrative goes out of the way to show all the civilians from Undercity escaping, while the annihilation of places like Brill happens conveniently offscreen. The zone is no less eradicated than Teldrassil, but it is consequence-free. So much so that, on this forum, many players ignore that it happened at all and ask when the Alliance will receive retribution for Teldrassil.
And now Dazar’alor. If you play Horde, you see quite a few civilian casualties - obvious noncombatants - but this is almost entirely sanitized from what the Alliance player sees, and is not mentioned going forward. Once again, the story is at pains to avoid presenting Alliance players with any significant moral consequences for their faction.
I think this is unfair to players on both sides. Horde players are basically given the story of a shameful henchman to play through. Alliance players are treated as if they can’t handle any moral complexity at all and will faint at the sight of a boo-boo.
Fair enough, again, I agree with you, Sylvanas was quicky shoe-horned in to be Warchief, which she should have never been seeing how she is a shady character and should have remained that. I will give you that, you are right. Though there is a difference in the Garrosh order… but no… they retconned it… before the retcon she was forced to attack Gilneas by Garrosh as a suicide mission and she refused to die so she went against his orders to make sure she and her people came out of this conflict alive… sadly in the retcon she convinced Garrosh to have her attack Gilneas… I hate Blizz sometimes…
personally, i am more than happy with this. we need more of this and less random attacks on vulperas.
but it would be nice if these moral questions are actually presented not only in the narrative but also from our leaders.
but why does it even matter if no one is going to care at all?
and to be fair, no one seems to care about brennand either.
Wait, did it really go that far? I read Chron 3, but didn’t notice that. In Edge of Night, Sylvanas only took over Garrosh’s Gilneas invasion to keep Garrosh from purposefully genociding the Forsaken by using them as suicide troops.
The quillboar are probably buttrustled that their glorious invasion of Brennand was stolen by the Horde at the last minute by the devs who wanted the Horde to be as big scumbags as possible in BFA.
Though there is always one thing that the Alliance players on THEIR side of the raid seem to ignore: Gelbin lets loose a wild beast who is too dumb to tell friend from foe on a residential district… that is on the Alliance side of the raid… yet no one ever questions that. Not even a silent: Ummmm…
I thought I remember reading that Sylvanas convinced Garrosh to attack Gilneas… or that might be the mandela effect that forces me to remember it that way from everybody who claims this… I gotta read Chron 3 again.
You fool, the mentally obliterated gorilla can easily direct itself. That’s why it doesn’t need something like say…an electro shock rod called something dumb like the ‘Apetagonizer’ to direct it.
World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume III, Page 201:
Gilneas had escaped invasion from outside forces due to the massive Greymane Wall on its northern border. But that had changed with the Cataclysm. Earthquakes had shattered part of the wall, leaving Gilneas vulnearble.
Garrosh Hellscream was not the only member of the Horde who desired Gilneas. Sylvanas Windrunner was eager to bring the kingdom under her dominion. She convinced Garrosh to give her control over the invasion force, and she led the Horde’s rampage through the isolated nation.
Which is only to anger Grong, not really direct him, are you telling me that everywhere that Grong lands these shock-rods suddenly appear? I would hasten a guess and say no… that doesn’t happen. Grong stays in one place too long, those things catch up and try to make him go somewhere else for maximum damage. Is how I guess those things happen.
And people wonder why I hate that fan-fiction tier book… ugh!
I felt so bad for the Horde players this entire expansion because “morally gray” was clearly thrown out the window, no matter what Blizz tells them. My one comfort was that at least my primary faction was mostly consistent so far… and then Dazar’alor…
Me: “Genn… uhm. What are you doing?”
Genn: “Killing this guy. …I think he’s a Baker.”
Troll: “I am, mon! Good guess.”
Me: “Genn… that’s a civilian. I dont think this is what Anduin wan-”
Genn: “HIS BREAD PROVIDES THE CARBOHYDRATES THAT FUEL THE HORDE WAR MACHINE!”
/sigh.
On the other hand, I highly doubt there were no civilian casualties when Zul set Stormwind on fire. So… call it even and we’re all still uncomfortable with Teldrassil?
Jut to clarify, because I’ve seen this mistake made quite often ever since Volume 3 came out.
The text doesn’t say “Sylvanas convinced Garrosh to attack Gilneas”.
As Amadis quoted, the exact words are:
This doesn’t really retcon anything. This implies the invasion was already planned, but Sylvanas convinced Garrosh to give her the reigns. Which lines up with Edge of Night where Garrosh proceeded with the invasion, only for Sylvanas to swoop in and take control.
Thing is, Zul is a bit of a… well… I don’t want to post the word cause a.) I can’t and b.) If I tried and actually succeeded someone might get their sensitive feel-feels hurt and report me, but yeah, he isn’t a good person. Nobody really likes him. And none of us knew what he was doing with the torch until Stormwind was set ablaze, Genn on the other hand and the Alliance players knew they were going to use a wild, uncontrollable beast in a residential area and did it anyhow lieing to Anduin that we would keep the civilian casualties to a minimum.
I guess that makes it better, Garrosh would have sent in Sylvanas in a suicide mission, she convinced Garrosh to give her the reigns and made it a success instead… so wait… is him complaining about her using the blight and val’kyr also retconned?
I see weapons in the hands of those Zocalo shoppers, and I know from going through this area as Alliance, the caravan brutosaur is a hostile mob that will attack you.
The Alliance is not going to massacre the innocent as they flee, but anyone who takes up arms against us, whether in uniform or not, is a legitimate target. They don’t get to come running at us with an axe and hide behind the fact they weren’t wearing a military uniform while they did it if our soldiers fight back. Under the Geneva conventions, they would be considered “irregular forces” and thus fair game. If they wish to be spared, they can surrender or flee. That’s how war works. That’s why war is an awful thing sane leaders do their best to avoid.
OP seems really desperate to manufacture Alliance war crimes so they can make up a “both sides!” narrative where there isn’t one, however.
Second: He was acting alongside Horde Agents at the time who chose to prison-break him along with Telanji; so from the Alliance perspective, he was acting WITH the Horde there. (though we players know he doesnt represent the Horde in any way.)
Nah, all of that was still in game, and not touched upon by Chronicles.
From the quest “The Hunt For Sylvanas”:
General Warhowl says: You sound very confident, your Majesty. I seriously hope you do not plan to use the Plague. Garrosh has explicitly forbidden it.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: You'd do well to watch your tone, General. Neither you nor Garrosh have anything to worry about. We've ceased all production of the Plague, as he ordered. We'd never deploy it without his permission.
General Warhowl says: I will deliver my report to our leader, then. By your leave, my lady.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Go with honor, General. Warhowl exits the cathedral.
High Executor Crenshaw says: My Lady! Should I order my men to stop development of the Plague? Or are we to continue as planned?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: What kind of question is that? Of course we're deploying the Plague as planned! Let the Gilneans enjoy their small victory. Not even their bones will remain by tomorrow.
High Executor Crenshaw says: As you wish!
And, once again, wasn’t even solely Garrosh’s law, as Thrall had the law in place when he was still Warchief as well, as we see when a Forsaken player talked to a Kor’kron Overseer that Thrall had placed in the Undercity and asked where the alchemy trainer was:
Kor'kron Overseer: I bet you rotters thought you were pretty clever at the Wrath Gate, didn't you? Playtime's over. We're here to make sure you don't try anything.
Kor'kron Overseer: Doctor Herbert Halsey is who you want. Just don't try anything funny. Any more of that plague nonsense and you'll find an axe in uncomfortable places.
A combatant is defined as anyone who engages in the fight. This is where the gray begins, when your home is being torn down by an enemy army are you going to trust them not to kill you? Most likely not- but at the same time is a soldier going to feel good about killing someone protecting their children or family? Then there’s the fact they sicc’ed elementals on soldier and civilian alike.
True, but we know that we, the agents, did not know that Zul was planning to set Stormwind ablaze until after we reached the pier and literally saw Stormwind ablaze… with one torch… seriously alliance, you need some sort of fire-safety in place.
sigh
Again, it isn’t like they had a choice, the soldiers were cutting down anyone and the trolls were pinned in their huts by elementals and corehounds attacking them. I mean, if I as a civilian see a invading force that has already cut down civilians who were trying to flee, I sure as hell wouldn’t trust them to not do the same to me, simply because I am begging for my life.
Somehow the Stormwind Stockades can house an entire wing of fire elementals without setting the rest of the city on fire, so, we clearly have the stonework technology. Guess the Stonemasons Guild just cut corners for the rest of the city. No wonder they didn’t get paid.