After all, Thrall proudly wears his armor and his weapon, named his new, redeemed horde’s airships and their Capital City after him, and generally holds him up as a primo example of an honorable orc.
Orgrim truly cared about his people, the orcs. He just wanted to create a homeland for them in Azeroth, and ensure their continued survival. When people say he is Honorable, I think that is what they mean: he cared about his people and he would do anything, no matter how vile, to create a world they could live in.
But if Doomhammer is honorable, then so is Sylvanas.
Like Sylvanas, Doomhammer burned down forests occupied by elves. The high elves, specifically.
He discovered the Shadow Council, but instead of killing them he made them use their necromantic powers to serve the horde, just as Sylvanas uses necromancy to serve the horde’s interests now.
When Gul’dan deserted to pursue his own interests Orgrim felt honor-bound to send soldiers to bring him down, just as Sylvanas sent people to apprehend Saurfang when he refused to return to his responsibilities in the horde.
Now, the necromancy specifically was something he disliked, but felt it was necessary to combat the Alliance. So that’s better, right? He had no choice! And yet WHY did Doomhammer continue to fight, when he had already conquered Stormwind’s lands for his people?
The very same reason that Sylvanas had: because he felt war was an inevitability. That the other human nations would never leave them in peace. He was so convinced that he needed to utterly defeat the alliance for the sake of his people, that he did all sorts of unsavory things. (I haven’t even mentioned what his horde did to the Red Dragonflight).
But he did it for the horde. He did it to fight the Alliance. And so he is an honored horde hero. Basically what I’m saying is I am going to laugh so hard if Thrall shows up to wag his finger at Sylvanas for being dishonorable while still wearing Orgrim’s armor.
Doomhammer did what he did for the sake of his people, even though he didn't do it in the right way. Depending on who's writing her, Sylvanas's prime concern is Sylvanas.
10/27/2018 03:50 PMPosted by SavanovicI don't want to defend Doomhammer but like, the contexts of the wars were entirely different and also Doomhammer helped Thrall liberate the Orc camps on path to rebuilding a new Horde, somewhat "redeeming" himself in the process.
Ooh, I see:
So the horde honors the man he became, not the man he was while he led the horde to conquest?
Kind of like a Grom Hellscream situation?
That explains a lot actually, thanks!
10/27/2018 03:51 PMPosted by DemonflayerDoomhammer did what he did for the sake of his people, even though he didn't do it in the right way. Depending on who's writing her, Sylvanas's prime concern is Sylvanas.
THIS.
Doomhammer did many nasty things because he believed that's what he had to do to save his people. He's actually a VERY good example of what a "morally grey" character looks like - noble ends, achieved through not-so-noble means.
Sylvanas is only looking out for number one, and everyone knows it.
"I owe that much to Medivh... the good man he once was, not the pawn of Sargeras he became." - Archmage Khadgar10/27/2018 03:53 PMPosted by Lintsehsu10/27/2018 03:50 PMPosted by SavanovicI don't want to defend Doomhammer but like, the contexts of the wars were entirely different and also Doomhammer helped Thrall liberate the Orc camps on path to rebuilding a new Horde, somewhat "redeeming" himself in the process.
Ooh, I see:
So the horde honors the man he became, not the man he was while he led the horde to conquest?
Kind of like a Grom Hellscream situation?
That explains a lot actually, thanks!
Thrall idolized Doomhammer because of his status in a racial legacy that was denied to him by his human master.
Coming to grips with the gap between his fantasy version of figures like Doomhammer and Hellscream and the reality of their enormous failures and flaws was a major component of Thrall's story.
Sorry you missed all that.
Doomhammer remains a hero to Thrall's Horde because he broke Gul'dan's control over the orcs, tried to carve out a home for them on Azeroth, and gave his life freeing them from the interment camps. It has nothing to do with honor.
Coming to grips with the gap between his fantasy version of figures like Doomhammer and Hellscream and the reality of their enormous failures and flaws was a major component of Thrall's story.
Sorry you missed all that.
Doomhammer remains a hero to Thrall's Horde because he broke Gul'dan's control over the orcs, tried to carve out a home for them on Azeroth, and gave his life freeing them from the interment camps. It has nothing to do with honor.
Both sides use Necromancy. Just the fact that she uses Necromancy isn't really a big complaint about Sylvanas.
WC2 Death Knights were certainly not the nicest creation. But their numbers were nowhere near the industrial scale of killing-and-reanimating that Sylvanas is doing.
The process also desecrated the bodies of those knights, but didn't enslave their spirits. The spirits came from Orcs. Teron Gorefiend wasn't a human Knight who rose to kill humans, he was an Orc in a human's dead body.
And Doomhammer inherited the problem (Horde are bad, Alliance really wants to wipe out Horde), instead of starting it himself and exaggerating it for propaganda.
WC2 Death Knights were certainly not the nicest creation. But their numbers were nowhere near the industrial scale of killing-and-reanimating that Sylvanas is doing.
The process also desecrated the bodies of those knights, but didn't enslave their spirits. The spirits came from Orcs. Teron Gorefiend wasn't a human Knight who rose to kill humans, he was an Orc in a human's dead body.
And Doomhammer inherited the problem (Horde are bad, Alliance really wants to wipe out Horde), instead of starting it himself and exaggerating it for propaganda.
Hard to say. Honor is a wierd concept for The Horde in these days. Like they know the word but don't actually understand its meaning.
10/27/2018 03:55 PMPosted by KazalaThrall idolized Doomhammer because of his status in a racial legacy that was denied to him by his human master.
Coming to grips with the gap between his fantasy version of figures like Doomhammer and Hellscream and the reality of their enormous failures and flaws was a major component of Thrall's story.
Sorry you missed all that.
Doomhammer remains a hero to Thrall's Horde because he broke Gul'dan's control over the orcs, tried to carve out a home for them on Azeroth, and gave his life freeing them from the interment camps. It has nothing to do with honor.
Yeah sometimes a hero does pretty despicable things to people in order to help achieve greatness. Oliver Cromwell is a good example of this, in England he is considered a great hero who helped create the country, in Ireland he is know as a genocidal madman who tried to wipe out their people because he hated Catholics.
No, he just had cool looking stuff.
The definition of honor to the Horde seems to change every time the word is used...
Orgrim stood with the Forest Trolls. He will always be a hero to me.
"You may carry his hamma, but you're no Doomhammer, boy."
"You may carry his hamma, but you're no Doomhammer, boy."
How does one measure the quality of, 'Honor?'
Do you tally, 'Honorable Acts,' against, 'Dishonorable Acts?' Is committing a single act of honor enough to be honorable? Is committing a single act of dishonor enough to forever prevent one from being honorable? Is it measured by the impact on the world and whether or not that impact was positive or negative?
I think it's hard to say whether or not Ogrim Doomhammer was an Honorable Man without answering the above question. I think it's perfectly fair to say that his actions made him a Hero to the Orcs.
Do you tally, 'Honorable Acts,' against, 'Dishonorable Acts?' Is committing a single act of honor enough to be honorable? Is committing a single act of dishonor enough to forever prevent one from being honorable? Is it measured by the impact on the world and whether or not that impact was positive or negative?
I think it's hard to say whether or not Ogrim Doomhammer was an Honorable Man without answering the above question. I think it's perfectly fair to say that his actions made him a Hero to the Orcs.
10/27/2018 03:58 PMPosted by NightlighterHard to say. Honor is a wierd concept for The Horde in these days. Like they know the word but don't actually understand its meaning.
More like it doesn't have an actual meaning, as we have no idea what even qualifies as honor for the horde. Is it an idealized version of chivalry from the romantic ages, a samurais unending faith in their liege, a Vikingss unwillingness to fight using trickery and willingness to kill under the slightest provocation, or like a roman senator who refuses to give into corruption?
No definition of honor can make it be anywhere from killing non-combatants to just sending assassins to kill your enemy, or it could be you must commit any atrocity your lord tells you to.
10/27/2018 03:55 PMPosted by KazalaThrall idolized Doomhammer because of his status in a racial legacy that was denied to him by his human master.
Coming to grips with the gap between his fantasy version of figures like Doomhammer and Hellscream and the reality of their enormous failures and flaws was a major component of Thrall's story.
Sorry you missed all that.
Doomhammer remains a hero to Thrall's Horde because he broke Gul'dan's control over the orcs, tried to carve out a home for them on Azeroth, and gave his life freeing them from the interment camps. It has nothing to do with honor.
I DID miss all that, actually! Was it in a quest? A book?
Thrall talked about how his people must atone for their crimes and made them stay in a barren wasteland because of it. But I never saw any dialogue from him about the heroes he idolizes being flawed. The point where he SHOULD have realized they aren’t good role models is with the whole Garrosh incident, right?
But you know what Thrall says when he realizes Garrosh internalized all the wrong things from his idols?
“You are not worthy of your father’s legacy.”
What a thing to say! Unbridled war and victory by any evil means necessary WAS Grom’s legacy up until the very end where he brought the corruption he helped start to an end. At best he fixed his own mistake, but the only “legacy” grom left was something Garrosh was copying to a T.
10/27/2018 03:55 PMPosted by KazalaThrall idolized Doomhammer because of his status in a racial legacy that was denied to him by his human master.
Coming to grips with the gap between his fantasy version of figures like Doomhammer and Hellscream and the reality of their enormous failures and flaws was a major component of Thrall's story.
Sorry you missed all that.
Doomhammer remains a hero to Thrall's Horde because he broke Gul'dan's control over the orcs, tried to carve out a home for them on Azeroth, and gave his life freeing them from the interment camps. It has nothing to do with honor.
This is the truth of it. Whether you think of Doomhammer as a hero or a bloodthirsty conqueror depends purely on whose side you're on. His deification is really just from Thrall fetishizing his lost culture more than anything.
10/27/2018 04:03 PMPosted by Reallyhappy10/27/2018 03:58 PMPosted by NightlighterHard to say. Honor is a wierd concept for The Horde in these days. Like they know the word but don't actually understand its meaning.
More like it doesn't have an actual meaning, as we have no idea what even qualifies as honor for the horde. Is it an idealized version of chivalry from the romantic ages, a samurais unending faith in their liege, a Vikingss unwillingness to fight using trickery and willingness to kill under the slightest provocation, or like a roman senator who refuses to give into corruption?
No definition of honor can make it be anywhere from killing non-combatants to just sending assassins to kill your enemy, or it could be you must commit any atrocity your lord tells you to.
I always figured it was the viking's sense of honor, that is how I saw the Horde when I first played it at least. But now? I couldn't tell you what they mean. It sucks.
As has been said, the context of the wars are very different. Orgrim was stuck between a dying world and the Alliance with a Horde that was still tripping on demon blood and poised to rip itself a part in a bloody internal war if he didn't find someone else to direct their bloodlust toward.
For him war was truly inevitable. Either his people would die on Draenor through vicious infighting and ever decreasing resources or he'd take the fight to the Alliance.
Sylvanas' war was based on the idea that her enemies might attack her a few centuries down the road. Her entire world view is that peace is temporary and therefore not worth pursuing.
One was guaranteed death and mayhem if he didn't act. The other was a guess based on paranoia.
Additionally, while Orgrim did way worse things than Sylvanas has over the course of the Second War (enslaving the Red Flight being the biggest one) there was no doubt that he was pursuing a victory for his people. Sylvanas' motives are dubious and we have a few hints that she's more interested in expanding the Forsaken than she is keeping the rest of the Horde safe.
Still one of my favorite Warcraft quotes.
For him war was truly inevitable. Either his people would die on Draenor through vicious infighting and ever decreasing resources or he'd take the fight to the Alliance.
Sylvanas' war was based on the idea that her enemies might attack her a few centuries down the road. Her entire world view is that peace is temporary and therefore not worth pursuing.
One was guaranteed death and mayhem if he didn't act. The other was a guess based on paranoia.
Additionally, while Orgrim did way worse things than Sylvanas has over the course of the Second War (enslaving the Red Flight being the biggest one) there was no doubt that he was pursuing a victory for his people. Sylvanas' motives are dubious and we have a few hints that she's more interested in expanding the Forsaken than she is keeping the rest of the Horde safe.
"Have a care, warlock. Remember what happened to your precious Shadow Council. I can crush your skull in an instant, and then where will your destiny lie? And do not think this abomination will save you. I have felled ogres before, even the gronn. I can and will do so again. Your goals are no longer important. Only the Horde matters."
~ Orgrim Doomhammer speaking to Gul'dan
Still one of my favorite Warcraft quotes.
Tell us more about why orcish culture is wrong, Blood Elf Death Knight.10/27/2018 04:04 PMPosted by MyrothanThis is the truth of it. Whether you think of Doomhammer as a hero or a bloodthirsty conqueror depends purely on whose side you're on. His deification is really just from Thrall fetishizing his lost culture more than anything.
10/27/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Kisin
For him war was truly inevitable. Either his people would die on Draenor through vicious infighting and ever decreasing resources or he'd take the fight to the Alliance.
Sylvanas' war was based on the idea that her enemies might attack her a few centuries down the road. Her entire world view is that peace is temporary and therefore not worth pursuing.
One was guaranteed death and mayhem if he didn't act. The other was a guess based on paranoia.
Is that the difference, then? That Orgrim was CORRECT to think that peace was impossible, while Sylvanas is INCORRECT?
Sylvanas is paranoid and delusional and wrong in her assumptions. But were it not for all that (I know thats a lot to ask to put aside, even for a “what if?” question, but please stick with me!), would her motivations for war be just as honorable as Orgrims, in a world where her reasoning was sound?