This is the truth of it. Whether you think of Doomhammer as a hero or a bloodthirsty conqueror depends purely on whose side you're on. His deification is really just from Thrall fetishizing his lost culture more than anything.
Tell us more about why orcish culture is wrong, Blood Elf Death Knight.
Did I say it was? Why are you so obsessed my guy? Fwiw, I think Orgrim and Durotan are much better tragic hero stories than Arthas' punk !@#.
... Tell us more about why orcish culture is wrong, Blood Elf Death Knight.
Did I say it was? Why are you so obsessed my guy? Fwiw, I think Orgrim and Durotan are much better tragic hero stories than Arthas' punk !@#.
I'm not obsessed. Your edgy horns just keep popping up.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Did I say it was? Why are you so obsessed my guy? Fwiw, I think Orgrim and Durotan are much better tragic hero stories than Arthas' punk !@#.
I'm not obsessed. Your edgy horns just keep popping up.
Cute, and your obsession is flattering, but try to chill man. If you want my usual spiel, I'd definitely put Orgrim and Sylvanas in the same category when it comes to Warchief style. Vae Victis is part of both of their leadership styles and I approve wholeheartedly.
...
Did I say it was? Why are you so obsessed my guy? Fwiw, I think Orgrim and Durotan are much better tragic hero stories than Arthas' punk !@#.
I'm not obsessed. Your edgy horns just keep popping up.
You know, I've seen a couple "The Horde is supposed to be the bad guys!" Alliance players try and claim the Horde playerbase only started caring about morality when the Blood Elves were added and the Horde got a new demographic of players.
These people have clearly never actually interacted with Blood Elf players.
You know, I've seen a couple "The Horde is supposed to be the bad guys!" Alliance players try and claim the Horde playerbase only started caring about morality when the Blood Elves were added and the Horde got a new demographic of players.
These people have clearly never actually interacted with Blood Elf players.
Oh absolutely. A lot of Blood Elves are reaching levels I thought reserved only for Male Human Pallies.
Cute, and your obsession is flattering, but try to chill man.
Don't flatter yourself, cupcake, you're a piss poor person to be obsessed over. You're little more than an edgy teen who comes on these forums to get out his excess rage after your mom said no to buying you Gwar tickets. If I'm gonna obsess over a Horde player, I'd pick Darethy. Darethy's cool.
you're a piss poor person to be obsessed over
And yet here you are, writing paragraphs for sentences. Really makes you think.
Is that the difference, then? That Orgrim was CORRECT to think that peace was impossible, while Sylvanas is INCORRECT?
Sylvanas is paranoid and delusional and wrong in her assumptions. But were it not for all that (I know thats a lot to ask to put aside, even for a “what if?” question, but please stick with me!), would her motivations for war be just as honorable as Orgrims, in a world where her reasoning was sound?
Sylvanas being right or not doesn't really factor into it. Even if she is right and a permanent peace is impossible her choice was "war now or war in a hundred years". Orgrim's choice was "War now or die".
Sylvanas had a choice. Orgrim effectively had a non-choice, because extinction is never a legitimate option.
It's also worth mentioning that I don't know if I'd really call Orgrim honorable. At least not by the current Horde's standards. Saurfang sure doesn't feel like what he did under Orgrim and Blackhand was honorable.
At most you can say Orgrim was honorable in his personal dealings. He fought duels honorably. He mostly kept his word (though he did break Zul'jin's trust by choosing to take Lordaeron rather than aid the Amani in taking Quel'Thalas).
Even then, I don't think you could say he especially honorable until he lost his war and had a decade or so to think about his actions and where he was leading his people. By the time Thrall met him Orgrim was a very different orc.
And yet here you are, writing paragraphs for sentences. Really makes you think.
I do that for everyone, you edgy boob, I just don't wanna link your whole post and clutter up the forums.
After the destruction of Stormwind, hell, even before the destruction of Stormwind, Doomhammer had a choice whether to continue his hostilities or seek peace. He never once considered peace, ever. As he himself stated in his battle after he slew Lothar "I Have conquered! And so shall all our foes die, until your world belongs to us!" (Tides of Darkness 352)
Bolded emphasis mine. Orgrim may have cared for his people, but he had no compunction against exterminating all others. Had the amani not already been fighting the humans, he would have turned on them the same as the Horde under Blackhand attempted with the Gurubashi (chronicle II 125 page). Doomhammer's horde would never have been thrall's horde. And doomhammer would never have tried to make peace with anyone.
After the destruction of Stormwind, hell, even before the destruction of Stormwind, Doomhammer had a choice whether to continue his hostilities or seek peace. He never once considered peace, ever. As he himself stated in his battle after he slew Lothar "I Have conquered! And so shall all our fores die, until your world belongs to us!"
Bolded emphasis mine. Orgrim may have cared for his people, but he had no compunction against exterminating all others. Had the amani not already been fighting the humans, he would have turned on them the same as the Horde under Blackhand attempted with the Gurubashi (chronicle 125 page). Doomhammer's horde would never have been thrall's horde. And doomhammer would never had tried once to make peace with anyone.
I’ve been made to understand that nobody thinks Orgrim was honorable DURING the war, and instead thrall calls him honorable because of what he did after they lost... I think?
I’m still wrapping my head around it though: if it was caring about people and freedom from bondage was what they honored Orgrim for wouldn’t they name homeless shelters or soup kitchens after him? Instead they seem to associate his name with his conquests, naming their warships and stuff after him.
Its pretty ironic that theres slavery allowed in the city named after Orgrim if he was honored for freeing the orcs from slavery.
I don't want to defend Doomhammer but like, the contexts of the wars were entirely different and also Doomhammer helped Thrall liberate the Orc camps on path to rebuilding a new Horde, somewhat "redeeming" himself in the process.
Ooh, I see:
So the horde honors the man he became, not the man he was while he led the horde to conquest?
Kind of like a Grom Hellscream situation?
That explains a lot actually, thanks!
No. They honor him for who he was. If you read the Rise of the Horde stuff, the guy was always beloved and honored by the other orcs. Always.
And you are right, Sylvanas is the most Doomhammer-like Warchief the Horde’s has since him.
Its pretty ironic that theres slavery allowed in the city named after Orgrim if he was honored for freeing the orcs from slavery.
Blizzard has a habit of "wouldn'titbecoolif" without thinking through implications.
"Wouldn't it be cool if Varian had a mirrored backstory to Thrall?" was probably all they thought of when writing slave gladiators in Orgrimmar.
After the destruction of Stormwind, hell, even before the destruction of Stormwind, Doomhammer had a choice whether to continue his hostilities or seek peace. He never once considered peace, ever. As he himself stated in his battle after he slew Lothar "I Have conquered! And so shall all our fores die, until your world belongs to us!"
Bolded emphasis mine. Orgrim may have cared for his people, but he had no compunction against exterminating all others. Had the amani not already been fighting the humans, he would have turned on them the same as the Horde under Blackhand attempted with the Gurubashi (chronicle 125 page). Doomhammer's horde would never have been thrall's horde. And doomhammer would never had tried once to make peace with anyone.
I’ve been made to understand that nobody thinks Orgrim was honorable DURING the war, and instead thrall calls him honorable because of what he did after they lost... I think?
I’m still wrapping my head around it though: if it was caring about people and freedom from bondage was what they honored Orgrim for wouldn’t they name homeless shelters or soup kitchens after him? Instead they seem to associate his name with his conquests, naming their warships and stuff after him.
Its pretty ironic that theres slavery allowed in the city named after Orgrim if he was honored for freeing the orcs from slavery.
The fundamental question for you is what do you define as
Honorable? As Kisin points out, in his personal dealing Orgrim mostly kept his word. When YOU define as honorable will ultimately matter for how You see him. If you are looking for how the Orcs viewed him then that is a different question. Orcs view him, as Kisin and others note, as honorable for freeing them from the Shadow Council and fighting to liberate the orcs from the internment camps. He also was what orcish culture at that time revered to be an exemplar orc.
Everyone knows orcish honor means whatever you want it to mean silly.
I agree with you TC.
The only reason why I would be disloyal to Sylvanas is because my loyalty to Saurfang is stronger but I don't really disagree with anything she's done. Well, scratch that... I disagree with the extent of her actions but I don't disagree with the reasoning behind them. As in, she shouldn't have burned that tree down but I agree that the Night Elves had to go.
10/27/2018 04:49 PMPosted by
Saiphas
After the destruction of Stormwind, hell, even before the destruction of Stormwind, Doomhammer had a choice whether to continue his hostilities or seek peace. He never once considered peace, ever. As he himself stated in his battle after he slew Lothar "I Have conquered! And so shall all our foes die, until your world belongs to us!" (Tides of Darkness 352)
Bolded emphasis mine. Orgrim may have cared for his people, but he had no compunction against exterminating all others. Had the amani not already been fighting the humans, he would have turned on them the same as the Horde under Blackhand attempted with the Gurubashi (chronicle II 125 page). Doomhammer's horde would never have been thrall's horde. And doomhammer would never have tried to make peace with anyone.
I'd argue that an entire planet's population of orcs probably couldn't have sustained themselves purely within former Stormwind's borders, and there is no way Lordaeron and the rest of the Alliance would have let them stay.
There's also still the bloodlust issue. Without something to fight the orcs would have likely killed themselves.
Though you're right in that Orgrim's Horde would never become Thrall's Horde. Their loss against the Alliance shook the orcish people to their very core and gave them a lot of time for self reflection. As dark a time as it was for the orcs and as inhumane as their living conditions were, it was probably vital to the orcs actually dealing with their bloodlust and settling down enough to build a society.
If it were better funded the whole "rehabilitate the orcs" plan might have worked in the long term.
10/27/2018 05:45 PMPosted by
Kisin
10/27/2018 04:49 PMPosted by
Saiphas
After the destruction of Stormwind, hell, even before the destruction of Stormwind, Doomhammer had a choice whether to continue his hostilities or seek peace. He never once considered peace, ever. As he himself stated in his battle after he slew Lothar "I Have conquered! And so shall all our foes die, until your world belongs to us!" (Tides of Darkness 352)
Bolded emphasis mine. Orgrim may have cared for his people, but he had no compunction against exterminating all others. Had the amani not already been fighting the humans, he would have turned on them the same as the Horde under Blackhand attempted with the Gurubashi (chronicle II 125 page). Doomhammer's horde would never have been thrall's horde. And doomhammer would never have tried to make peace with anyone.
I'd argue that an entire planet's population of orcs probably couldn't have sustained themselves purely within former Stormwind's borders, and there is no way Lordaeron and the rest of the Alliance would have let them stay.
There's also still the bloodlust issue. Without something to fight the orcs would have likely killed themselves.
Though you're right in that Orgrim's Horde would never become Thrall's Horde. Their loss against the Alliance shook the orcish people to their very core and gave them a lot of time for self reflection. As dark a time as it was for the orcs and as inhumane as their living conditions were, it was probably vital to the orcs actually dealing with their bloodlust and settling down enough to build a society.
If it were better funded the whole "rehabilitate the orcs" plan might have worked in the long term.
Maybe, yet at the same time what was the Alliance to do? If anything, the mercy granted the Orcish horde is almost a singular event. If the Amani had defeated the High Elves, would
they have sought just their imprisonment? Hell, it was as Darethy noted the act of mercy itself, such as it was, that shattered the Alliance. Chronicle 2 and 3 makes this abundantly clear (page 177-178, 34).
As for their borders, Stormwind's territory was relatively massive, they could have also decided to consolidate and press war against the Gurubashi. No, Orgrim sought war with the humans, because he decided they were easy meat to conquer.
10/27/2018 05:55 PMPosted by
Saiphas
Maybe, yet at the same time what was the Alliance to do? If anything, the mercy granted the Orcish horde is almost a singular event. If the Amani had defeated the High Elves, would they have sought just their imprisonment? Hell, it was as Darethy noted the act of mercy itself, such as it was, that shattered the Alliance. Chronicle 2 and 3 makes this abundantly clear (page 177-178, 34).
As for their borders, Stormwind's territory was relatively massive, they could have also decided to consolidate and press war against the Gurubashi. No, Orgrim sought war with the humans, because he decided they were easy meat to conquer.
I've never begrudged the Alliance for their actions in the First and Second wars. It is unreasonable for an invasive group to expect good treatment from the people they are invading. It's why I wouldn't begrudge the Amani for the inevitable purge of the High Elves from their territory and chasing the remainder into the sea.
The Alliance were under no obligation to conserve the orcish species after they invaded Azeroth. They weren't obligated to not cull the orcish species after the war ended.
I just also understand that from the perspective of an orc the internment camps were a nightmare.
It's kind of sad that WC2 feels more morally grey than BfA has so far.
10/27/2018 06:13 PMPosted by
Kisin
10/27/2018 05:55 PMPosted by
Saiphas
Maybe, yet at the same time what was the Alliance to do? If anything, the mercy granted the Orcish horde is almost a singular event. If the Amani had defeated the High Elves, would they have sought just their imprisonment? Hell, it was as Darethy noted the act of mercy itself, such as it was, that shattered the Alliance. Chronicle 2 and 3 makes this abundantly clear (page 177-178, 34).
As for their borders, Stormwind's territory was relatively massive, they could have also decided to consolidate and press war against the Gurubashi. No, Orgrim sought war with the humans, because he decided they were easy meat to conquer.
I've never begrudged the Alliance for their actions in the First and Second wars. It is unreasonable for an invasive group to expect good treatment from the people they are invading. It's why I wouldn't begrudge the Amani for the inevitable purge of the High Elves from their territory and chasing the remainder into the sea.
The Alliance were under no obligation to conserve the orcish species after they invaded Azeroth. They weren't obligated to not cull the orcish species after the war ended.
I just also understand that from the perspective of an orc the internment camps were a nightmare.
It's kind of sad that WC2 feels more morally grey than BfA has so far.
That's fair, though I would argue that it was more the Peace following WC2 was morally grey rather than the war itself. (Side note, the BDF starting right after doomhammer's defeat set to work trying to destroy the Alliance from within).
10/27/2018 06:16 PMPosted by
Saiphas
That's fair, though I would argue that it was more the Peace following WC2 was morally grey rather than the war itself. (Side note, the BDF starting right after doomhammer's defeat set to work trying to destroy the Alliance from within).
Even the start had some elements of it. Orgrim needed to wage war or watch his people die. Zul'jin had a long standing grudge against the High Elves for stealing their ancestral land. Gul'dan was a necessary evil that ended up biting Orgrim in the butt.
The ending had the most moral greyness though, definitely. It was a hard moral choice that ultimately tore the Alliance a part.
Meanwhile Sylvanas goes to war on an assumption while the most peace-focused leader the Alliance has ever had sits on the throne.