Was Alliance Losing the War?

Lore Story Forum
101

To be fair, it really doesn’t make sense for any Alliance leader to think that there’s still good in the Horde after seeing what horrible atrocities they are willing to commit. Teldrassil should’ve proven that the Horde can and should never be blindly trusted again, yet Anduin still does it. The Horde itself is as much of a threat to the Alliance as the burning Legion or the Scourge, there’s really not much of a difference between those. The Horde is fine with burning innocents and children alive and send them straight to hell just to be a little bit safer in the future, I don’t see how they’re less evil than the scourge or the Burning Legion.

Again it’s not what I wanted the Horde to be, but that’s what the writers want.

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102

Don’t forget the Horde’s habit of getting to keep (night elven) territories they took in conflict to wastefully strip of resources and poison. True, the Forsaken lose their own homeland. But if you only play Alliance, only the Human players are happy with said arrangement of winning back their “holy land” that’s fantasy Chernobyl right now at the expense of the night elven homelands. And said people tastelessly think the Night elves should just help cleaning up Lorderon, settle down in the Eastern Kingdoms, and forget about their own holy land that’s being systematically destroyed for good. All so they can be replacement “mysterious elves from the North” thematic high-elf replacements.

Perhaps there’s a similar mindset with the “old horde” who gain a resource-rich continent in exchange for a dump that’s already been exploited of anything of value.

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103

However, the Horde did not know this, and few races know more about the Shadow Lands, for the orcs the ancestors go to eternal hunting grounds, for the trolls they go to bwonsamdi, for the elves they go to Elune or the stars. For the humans they go to the light. They didn’t know that the deceased would pay the ultimate price, and I think if this comes out, I hope it will at least open the eyes of many, especially on the Horde side. Many will condemn me, but I hope to see some of the characters there who are revealed by what happened in the afterlife…feel a guilt that culminates in a form of self-hatred, self-hatred to be deceived like that, shame. Because that’s the whole situation, a shame. What better way to portray the surviving Horde than by not only acknowledging but also feeling the great shame that Teldrassil represents. What kind of scum they were, what they made possible there, of course it won’t happen that way, but at least one or two characters would be good to mention it on the Horde side, maybe the Horde can be saved after all, from a narrative point of view.

Besides, in the new book we learn that Anduin doesn’t trust the Horde, but he says that the alternative is much more expensive for the future of azeroth and the alliance.

104

The old Horde, maybe.

The new evil Horde that the writers want would probably celebrate if they found out that all the Night Elves they killed will also have to suffer in the maw forever with no way out…
This seems to be more in line with how damn evil they made the faction.

105

Naa, that’s too pessimistic, it’s already clearly differentiated in the BFA_ narrative, the main criticism is that the horde gets away so easily, well, only the horde that is “honorable”, the honor horde that joined Saurfang and supported until his death.

106

Which was the vast minority. Even Saurfang blamed it all on Sylvanas.

my main criticism is that almost nobody in the Horde showed that they are any better than Sylvanas. They all were okay with Teldrassil because they thought they would benefit from it, but when it turned out that Sylvanas did all of it for herself they suddenly weren’t okay with it anymore.

After all they are probably still happy that Teldrassil happened because not only did they heavily weaken the Night Elves and get a stronger grip on Kalimdor (also new territory and ressources with Ashenvale), they also got the peace on their own conditions that they wanted.
I mean they only started the war of thorns because they wanted to have a better position in a peace negotiation with the Alliance, and they kind of got that now by nearly ending the Kaldorei as a nation, expanding their influence on Kalimdor and still achieving peace with the Alliance.

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107

This peace that we don’t know anything about yet, the Ashenvalley that we don’t know how it was settled? blizz himself said they will deal with Teldrassil from a narrative point of view for years to come, so one shouldn’t praise the day before the evening.

It may be that the Horde gets away with it now, but has a terrible price to pay in the future, it may be that the Horde left Ashenvale a long time ago, it may be that the Horde is now being rebuilt to be crushed by the Alliance in a reverse scenario that still has an impact because of Teldrassil, starting with the Night Elves.

We don’t know enough yet, what we do know is that there is a truce, so we don’t know the terms of that truce. All we know is that this war has cost the Alliance one thing, their unity, not because of the Horde, but because of Anduin’s actions regarding the war and the situation.

108

You can pretend “to see things from the other POV” but at the end of the day you will refuse to accept or even contemplate any resolution to take place.

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109

For the love of god stop believing everything you hear in interviews.
Its all lies to placate people until the next trash fire.

Dont believe me? Go read the interviews they gave throughout BFA and tell me how accurate they actually portrayed what would happen.

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110

It wasn’t settled, that’s the whole point of Tyrande going crazy and evil and not accepting the peace treaty.

The only thing I got from that Interview was “wait and see, we don’t really care about Teldrassil and we have nothing planned yet and we tried to sweep it under the rug as well as we could but maybe we’ll have something in the future, just stay subbed”

The Night Elves that are near extinct now and couldn’t defend themselves against the Horde even before they were genocided in Teldrassil ?
The Horde has actually never lost against the Night Elves, and now there are barely any left so…

We know that everyone is at peace with each other besides the Night Elves, so the Horde can attack them at any time and they won’t even receive the help of the Alliance because they are at peace.
Oh and that Tyrande is some crazy warmongering witch that will soon be killed off for good.

At this point I wish I never started bothering with the lore, it’s just disappointment after disappointment, tragedy after tragedy, defeat after defeat - atleast for my race.
How foolish I was to believe that the Night Elves would be built back up after Teldrassil, or that Sylvanas and the Horde would eventually be brought to justice. Nope, nothing of that sort…

111

I haven’t just been here since yesterday, but if you’ve noticed in the narrative sense, Undercity is completely …fallen out of the narrative, it’s not even noticed anymore, Teldrassil, on the other hand, seems to me more like a dynamo of the story, which is supposed to drive it between the factions for years now, the War of the Thorns is supposed to have an after-effect, is supposed to have a narrative influence on this event in the background and also influence the cooperation between Alliance and Horde.

112

What you said is complete and utter nonsense.

But fine.
Lets wait for this shadowlands trash fire and see how amazingly they wrap up the conflict.

Look at how the interviews about morally gray and all that came to fruition… oh right it never did…

113

Believe me, if they made Tyrande evil or wrong, I’d be gone, I’d be gone instantly, and I’d write #Tyrande, because that’s exactly what the night elves don’t deserve to be.

I understand, I also think that blizz themselves are to blame for the loss of confidence, but maybe they surprise us, who knows.

Darkshore? :wink:

I don’t think the Alliance wants to lose its bridgehead and long-time ally on Kalimdor, the draenei are due, and in the end, not even Anduin has the support of all his people in every way, as the talks of the soldiers show, and many - including leaders of the Alliance - are on Tyrand’s side.

114

Of course it can be described as nonsense, and I agree with you that Blizzard did not deliver any reason to restore trust. But…if even the biggest Sylvanas fanboy says that Teldrassil is going to be the story for a long time to come, I believe that the narrative lead designer more than anyone else, because he writes the narrative.

115

And it wouldn’t matter because the goal is to drive Night Elf fans away from the game. Some writer just absolutely despises the race, and sadly he has too much power in the team. It was clear to me when even after Teldrassil and all the tragedies, they still wanted to make it worse instead of better by saying that all Night Elves that died will forever be in the maw

Not if they say that they liked BfA’s Story/Storytelling, that just means that there is more tragedy to come, likely with Tyrande’s death and Teldrassil will be swept further under the rug.

Feels hollow when they are refusing to implement the victory cinematic and only told us about it because someone asked about it on Blizzcon. Not even Ashenvale was reclaimed just so the horde can have a new zone. It’s actually so damn disgusting I can’t even express it in words :pensive:

Anduin didn’t care about the Night Elves when they were at their full strength in the war of the thorns, and he will most certainly not care about them when a few refugees are all that’s left of them.

Even if other faction leaders agreed with Tyrande, they still signed the peace treaty and left the Night Elves to suffer their own fate against the next attack of the Horde, even when they’re just trying to reclaim their lands.

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116

Does it matter to you if posters like that scream for genocide? They’re yelling at a wall. Blizzard won’t ever do that. Not unless they plan on turning the character who promotes it into a villain.

117

Using Phae quotes is bad faith; we all should know by now that Phae is a troll whose comments are only meant to bait. They aren’t representative of even a vocal minority of Alliance players, nor would I ever box Etheldald in with them. Because ultimately, Ethe was right; what even is the Horde now?

Cataclysm, MoP and BfA have shown our faction as bloodthirsty monsters, willing to follow any leader into a genocidal campaign, so long as there’s enough lok’tar in the ogar.

Legion showed us as the side-faction, whose narrative ended in Stormheim. WoD showed that the orcs… Well, seems they don’t need fel-taint to go all genocidal, just a little encouragement. We have to look back to Wrath, freaking WRATH, for a time when the overall narrative, the one shown to both sides, depicted a Horde that was anything other than sociopathic murderbots with rebellion tendencies in the late game.

So is it really even questionable to ask what the Horde is nowadays?

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118

This is key to my issue with the horde, i understand if people like it. if they like their races or characters, everyone have different tastes.

when i started playing “seriously” back in the cata era i started to see the faction for what it truly was.

Thrall was more the exception, he was raised by humans. the reality is that him and his people are two entirely different things. he doesn’t really represent them.

Now, doomhammer, garrosh, sylvanas seems to be what truly represent them.
or wasn’t that all the point of having two civil war? the horde only rebelled when their warchiefs attacks them and not because it was the actual right thing to do?

Where they followed their warchief until it says that they are nothing?
is that what the horde is?. Now of course, using superweapons, killing innocents, torturing,starting wars for no reason, backstab and making deals with literal old gods seems to be okay under the horde moral. But as soon as they are being attacked by their own warchief is when s*** hits the fan and not realizing that maybe they were in the wrong path for following said warchief in the first place.

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119

Are you saying I don’t believe what I say and I only say it to pissoff the Horde player? Because that’s entirely untrue.

120

This is the part of BfA that irks me the most.

The Horde already had a lot of stories showing off their dark side - lots of stories. Too many evil stories, without showing the other honorable/non-evil side to balance it out and show why the rest of the world keeps this faction around when they keep having members turn into world-threatening dangers.

After all, after experiencing several Horde members turning to darkness, including their own Warchief just a short while ago, the Horde should be uniquely paranoid and watchful for it happening, ready to leap in and quash it before it grows because oh no, we’re not going through that again, right? Right?

But instead of pulling back and balancing things out, Blizzard opted to just dive off the end of the scale entirely by making the Horde commit what Blizzard themselves chose to call genocide.

And, to cap it all off - they write the Horde doing so happily, with no thoughts of ‘is this too far’ or ‘is this another Garrosh’ or ‘maybe killing unarmed fleeing civilians is bad?’ until a patch later. The only character who does feel this way attempts to die, then abandons ‘her’ Horde.

They spend so much time showing just how much the -entire- Horde is participating in the war - no Garrosh single-mindedness here - giving only a single questline to the Horde player if they don’t agree with the war, while hammering to the Alliance again and again just how much the -entire- Horde is fully supportive of atrocities, whipping the story to a fever pitch-

-and then just quit.

Nope, no more fighting, Sylvanas said some mean things and noped out. Show to the Alliance that the Horde actually doesn’t support genocide? Nah, just shut up and sign this peace treaty or you’re clearly villain material. Want some introspection on Horde? Go rescue Baine, surely he represents everything you support instead of being a caricature in the other direction! Now shut up, players, and go buy Shadowlands. (Oh, and N’zoth the capstone of the Old God plots was stuffed in there somewhere.) But Shadowlands Shadowlands Shadowlands!

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