Sure there are some ‘easier’ to understand specs, but nothing is hard to play in this game cmon lol.
You are conflating intuitive class design with play difficulty.
Every spec is easy to play if you take a moment to read a guide. The difference is how responsive a class is if you mess up.
Fury for example only has one spender so regardless of how well you play you will be able to press Rampage. This can give you the false impression that you are playing it right even if you weren’t IE you press Whirlwind 7 times to generate enough Rage to Rampage.
Other specs often times don’t give you this false impression and as a result it’s easier to realize you’re messing up.
The thing that separates good from bad play is the players understanding of their classes nuances and their ability to optimize play with said nuances.
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The things people can convince themselves of lmao.
I mean if you want empirical evidence, simply look at WCL.
You can filter for 10,20… 80 or 90th percentiles for performance in raid on any difficulty. Specs have very little variance in their positioning and most deviations can be attributed to class population.
If some classes were as you claimed much harder to play there would be major shifts in the ordering between 10th 50th and 90th percentile with the easy classes at the top and hard classes at the bottom at lower percentiles but it doesn’t, it remains fairly consistent throughout.
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Specs like Elementalist Enhancement or Spriest or Feral tend to have less players, but ones overall more dedicated to playing their spec.
If you think a 4 button spec like Fury is as difficult as Enh with 11 buttons, modifiers and conditions to be the same difficulty then we don’t need to really discuss this further. You are welcome to your opinion.
Seeing as you’re for whatever reason counting Enhance cooldowns as active rotation buttons but not doing the same for Fury is telling.
If you don’t want to have an honest conversation just say so, it’ll save both of us some time.
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These aren’t cooldowns. I can see you have no understanding of Enhancement. It’s my fault for even engaging you on this topic.
This would be akin to a reproductive biologist debating someone spouting the ‘stork theory’. It is just utter nonsense.
Fury has 4 buttons, we can stop pretending that it is “deep”.
Then please enlighten me.
No one said it was deep, myself and others are simply pointing out that all the spec’s are pretty easy.
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When they gave paladins a battle res I was kind of surprised we didn’t get heroism. The number of times I see a key that would be great except it says “lust class…”
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Likely not, blizzard doesn’t want people to play DPS warrior usually, but doesn’t mean you shouldn’t keep voicing the need for it. You don’t get anything by quitting.
Also if my terrible self can play Most specs to 10+ keys cleared and AOTC, most classes are easy. I’m not a great player by any means. Enh is slightly more complex then warrior dps, Ele isn’t that much more difficult, i’ve played both on and off in dragonflight.
The point is, we should have -some- utility. Even if it only helps resolve one or two things, it’s better then zero and saying “We should be greatful we do damage and anyone takes us to anything.”
Advocate for utility, whining that it will never come doesn’t help anyone. If you’re here to just mope instead of helping raise attention to warrior’s toolkit issues, I don’t know why you’re on the forums looking at it.
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Lashing Flame is substantially harder to manage by itself than the entirety of Fury.
Ehh… he’s being a bit unfair, but not necessarily in that way.
He probably means these 11, though that requires stretching build feasibility, especially if it’s meant to compare against Fury’s ST… (EDITED due to typo/repeat)
1. Tempest
2. Elemental Blast
3. Lightning Bolt
4. Flame Shock
5. Ice Strike
6. Frost Shock
7. Lava Lash
8. Stormstrike / Windstrike
9. Crash Lightning (minimal priority ST, but technically may see use if there’s AoE to be done elsewhere and one gets zero Stormstrike procs)
10. Sundering (again, only for an AoE build)
11. Sundering / Fire Nova / Chain Lightning (if AoEing)
Whereas Fury would have…
1. Raging Blow
2. Bloodthirst
3. Execute
4. Rampage
5. Slam (if sufficiently unlucky)
6. Whirlwind (if AoE)
7. Onslaught (if pushing feasibility as far as the above)
Which could put Fury at “4 buttons”.
But then… since when has mere button count been a good indicator of overall cognitive load, especially when I can just, say, key-swipe Tempest->Elemental Blast → Lightning Bolt across my MMO mouse to use whichever one is off CD?
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To you maybe I guess? You do you though bud. Proud of you.
I wasn’t expecting Jolts to respond seeing as how they’re arguing in bad faith to save their ego or just plain trolling. It’s nice of you to try and help them out. There is however two mistakes in your list and I think you’re being too lenient with the last ones.
Is the upgraded version of
Same way both Bloodbath and Crushing Blow are upgraded versions of BT and RB
You also have Flame Shock listed twice
Crash Lightning is never talented on ST, at least on Storm build, can’t speak for Totemic though haven’t touched it yet. Crash Lightning does however see some play in cleave.
These would replace other buttons, IE Fire Nova and Ice Strike have no reason to be taken together.
It be akin to listing both Whirlwind and Thunderclap as rotational abilities for Mountain Thane.
Yep 100% and that’s not to say Enhance isn’t fast paced but half the listed abilities have a 10+ seconds CD so the decision making is heavily facilitated after the opener.
Add a half decent UI on top of that and knowing what should be pressed becomes obvious.
That also makes it far easier lol
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Comparing variability as our complexity metric, looks like fury and enhance are pretty close in complexity, ele a bit easier than those two, and arms more difficult than those two (which matches my personal experience as well). The population differences are big, but also the populations themselves are big enough that I expect that the sampling is sufficient to treat them as coming from the same population. At this point I need to see the distributions of the simmed results to determine if RNG is influencing the variance more than other classes, but I feel sufficiently satisfied with my cursory glance and not really worried about procs/crits/etc.
Whoops. Honest mistake.
I had thought I had said as much. Sorry if I was unclear, haha.
Anywho, the point of my comparison was to show that it was really more like 6 to 9, not… 4 to 11. And that the button count really doesn’t matter much anyways.
And, more constructively/usefully, I would say that —for my part— a well-designed spec is simply one that has basic optimizations just strong/impactful enough to be obvious guides for learners (giving fun learning milestones) without being so absolute as to make nuances few and far between, thereby making those milestones more recursive as you correct prior oversimplifications, in favor of increasingly precise breakpoints, etc. (And yes, “basic” difficulty [damned if X or if not X] often does detract from minutial differences that are in total far more capable of cognitive load. Some things are often difficult to master by way of the very same mechanics that make them initially “accessible”.)
I’m not one to say that “everything’s easy once you master it, so all are the same difficulty”, but… there’s the difficulty required to get 60% of maximum theoretical output for a given fight, 80%, 90%, 95%, 99%, etc., which may vary a fair bit compared to other specs or builds. That one is harder to get to 60% on is going to hold little bearing in the long term, especially if throwing around data from 90+ percentile Mythic parses or the like.
- And frankly, some variance in that regard is generally a good thing, as long as those total / ultimate min-max levels of play have decently comparable cognitive load… insofar as that could ever be measured anyways (given that some people are better at certain kinds of mental processing than at others, etc.).
You’re gucchi, I may have misread/misinterpreted.
I figured that was the intent with your last paragraph.
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And you find Fury mentally taxing. We all bear some burdens.
support my post about warrior! Warriors Need Upgrade In PVP: An Essay
I find the lack of warrior’s utility to solve any problem in general taxing yes. Considering every other class has some sort of answer to something. Immunities, grips, knockbacks, incaps, lust, good group defensives. Aug.
The taxing part isn’t fury, it’s just the dumb idea people have that warrior should only be a battleshout/dps bot when every other class in the game isn’t ;p Even the classes that have 3 dps specs have unique/useful utility. You could maybe argue spear I guess? But it ends up being bad in most M+ situations and in pvp half the classes just walk out of it anyway. (You can’t really count stuns since every class in the game p much has these and it DR’s very quickly. Not really a unique utility)
Even in Diablo barbarian (Which is the warrior class) Has a ton of utiltiy / suppor tabilities they trade damage for. Not sure why we shouldn’t. I’d rather have decent utility choices and mid-level damage then high damage for 2 weeks then smacked with a nerf truck and be useless.
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