This class has had a spec performing in the top 5 in raids for the past decade. They were god-tier when M+ was first released in Legion and they’re god tier again. Is there any reason for this? Why is Blizzard absolutely obsessed with this class?
I’m not joking. They have literally had a top 5 spec every tier for longer than Warcraftlogs has existed. We also know that Lock has been top dog during Classic and TBC.
Ny’alotha: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/24#dataset=95
Eternal Palace: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/23#dataset=95
Dazar’alor: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/21#dataset=95
*Uldir seems to be gone from logs but I played Aff during the tier and it was a top spec.
Antorus: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/17#dataset=95
Tomb of Sargeras: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/13#dataset=95
Nighthold: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/11#dataset=95
EN: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/10#dataset=95
Hellfire Citadel: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/8#dataset=95
Blackrock Foundry: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/7#dataset=95
Highmaul: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/6#dataset=95
Most classes would kill to have an above average spec to play every tier. Warlocks have had the best of the best and my question is simple: why?
PRO TIP: Notice where the other pure dps classes land before using it as an argument to justify Locks being top 5 all the time.
That’s ridiculous when you consider how tanky Warlocks are and the vast amount of defensive options they have. An Elemental Shaman’s casted heal does absolutely nothing unless it crits.
You’re just spouting out cringe, classic player’s nonsense. If you want a WoW where hybrids actually have impactful healing, part of that would include Warlocks losing their entire defensive kit to justify being top damage every tier.
Feral Druid says hi. Ret Paladin says hi. Enhancement Shaman says hi. Balance Druid says hi. The only hybrid that has abysmal healing is Elemental Shaman, I will give you that, but the other hybrids actually have way more healing than you think they do or believe they do.
For instance, Ferals who take the Resto Affinity get Ysera’s Gift as a passive heal, healing for 3-5% of their max health every 5 seconds. If you include that healing, as a total net healing across the whole raid, that’s more healing for literally just existing and not being dead than a lot of people would ever give it credit for. If you include using procs of their combo point thing on Regrowths, they can get quite a lot of healing out.
Same thing with Balance, except not for free with the procs for Regrowth thing. Also, Ret Paladin talents can say hi, as the same case with Enhancement Shamans using their full procs of their builder spender thing, too. Maelstrom Weapon I think it is? Either way, yeah, they can use for more damage or for on the spot healing that’s very good.
Vesper Totem also says hi. It’s literally the biggest contention every single healer has because it’s a single button you press that does absurd amounts of both healing and damage, more than literally every other class and spec in this game, even after they nerfed it by 35%.
Rets and Enhancement have to sacrifice damage to do the healing you refer to. They already have to make the choice to cut their dps if they want to heal something, they don’t need to be naturally lower dps on top of that. There’s a reason top guilds don’t bring Rets, Ferals or dps Shamans but load their raids up with Locks.
And as I already said, if you’re fine with these classes having terrible damage because of their healing, then Warlocks need to lose their ENTIRE defensive kit to compensate for how much damage they do.
Warlocks have to sacrifice damage to do the healing you refer to, too. Literally outside of Affliction’s 1 talent and it being very easily interruptable, they have to give up damage to use Drain Life. Their shields get blasted by other spec’s damage, especially melee’s damage profiles. Enhancement and Ret eat those bubbles like hot cakes.
Warlocks make the choice to cast or keep moving.
Yes, everything comes with a tradeoff.
Because Warlocks have a top damage spec, and demonic gateway, nothing else is needed from them. The same thing would happen if Rets were the best damage in the game for PvE, too. Warlocks also have 3 DPS specs, which almost guarantees they would be good at something, compared to Ret’s 1 DPS spec. Warlocks are also all ranged, which again considering the stigma of Ranged to Melee, this gives them a higher chance, too. Ferals are melee. DPS Shamans are squishy. It’s all about how much damage you bring to the table and what you bring, too, be it melee DPS spot or ranged DPS spot. Tell blizz to make more melee friendly raids, you’ll see more.
I would actually argue that all DPS need to lose their defensive and healing toolkits so that only healers can actually do their job. As a DPS your job is to kill things, interrupt things and that’s about it, realistically speaking. CC too but I mean, yeah, either way though healing should not be in literally any non healer role, including tanks.
When did I ever mention Drain Life when I listed their defensive toolkit? This is the definition of “moving the goalposts”
That’s every caster, buddy.
What? Warlock’s don’t have a tradeoff. “Mobility” isn’t an argument. As a Lock main this patch, they have enough and it doesn’t hinder them in any way.
Go back through the logs I posted and remind me where Rogues, Mages, and Hunters fall throughout the tiers. There are some tiers where those classes don’t have ANY spec in the top half. top HALF. It’s very rare for any non-Warlock spec to be in the top 5. This isn’t debatable. I posted the logs at the top of this thread.
I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but ele shaman is never going to top meters for long. If you get warlocks nerfed out of pettiness, it will just be mages and hunters taking their place. As they already have done in the past.
Classes with a single role DPS spec are unlikely to be top performers for the simple fact that balance is so haphazardly done, that the spec with 3 specs for the same role has far more likelihood of having a top performing one than the shadow priest, balance druid, or ele shaman hoping to compete.
I wouldn’t worry very much on threads like this causing a nerf, not only OP approach is all wrong [i mean, in another thread he was downright offensive] but it’s relatively rare for feedback in the class forums to be read by Community Management people.
And even more rare is for them to see a feedback like this and “oh he is right, we should nerf X due to this hysteric thread”.
OP is just angry, eventually he will calm down and stop posting here, debating it over is just a big waste.
If you are going to use the 95th percentile know that 95th percentile players will flock to whatever gives them the greatest potential, and that typically skews graphs a bit.
And I notice you left some tiers out, but don’t worry I got your back!
Total 24 dps specs
Sepulcher of the First Ones https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dataset=95
-Great raid for warlocks (Destro 1st, Demo 2nd, Aff 18th)
-Highest pure dps class other than Warlock (Survival 4th)
-Highest hybrid (Frost DK 3rd)
Antorus, The Burning Throne https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/17#dataset=95
-Great raid for warlocks (Aff 1st, Destro 4th, Demo 6th)
-Highest pure dps class other than Warlock (Assassination 10th)
-Highest hybrid (Windwalker 2nd)
The Nighthold https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/11#dataset=95
-Good almost great raid for warlocks (Aff 1st, Demo 3rd, Destro 22nd)
-Highest pure dps class other than Warlock (Frost Mage 2nd)
-Highest hybrid (Frost DK 5th)
Blackrock Foundry https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/7#dataset=95
-Good almost great raid for warlocks (Demo 2nd, Destro 6th, Aff 18th)
-Highest pure dps class other than Warlock (Fire 1st)
-Highest hybrid (Unholy 3rd)
Sanctum of Domination, Crucible of Storms, and Trial of Valor are not top 5 warlock tiers. See above.
It’s harder to attest to the M+ but Warlocks have had its ups and downs for sure.
As for right now, yeah warlocks are in a really good place having the top two spots in raid parses, and one of them being bonkers in M+.
For the pure dps classes warlock are sitting pretty good, the only contention I would say might be mages over the years.
I have and your math doesn’t check out, sure warlocks have had it good. But saying “It’s very rare for any non-Warlock spec to be in the top 5. This isn’t debatable.” is trolling at this point, warlocks only have 3 specs how can they hold all top 5 positions?
What I am about to say is coming from a place of sympathy and not hostility.
Coming to the warlock forums to complain, or any said class forum for that matter really does nothing. When was the last time a Dev posted anything in the class forums? Class forums are essentially echo chambers at this point.
And if your goal is to ask other warlocks (not devs), what point does this serve? Either they are playing them because they are strong (which causes an over representation), or because they like the class fantasy. Everyone rolls with the punches, yourself included.
Instead of trying to tear down anyone at the top, maybe you should look at building up what you like?
As Ice-T said “Don’t hate the player, hate the game”
(And before it even gets said and why I generally don’t post much, I am not a very good player by any means (pve/pvp/or M+), but I like the game and have always loved my warlock)
The mini-tiers (ToV and CoS) aren’t actually listed as tiers, so don’t worry BUD! I didn’t leave any out!!!111!
Nobody played those raids competitively, nobody took them seriously. They aren’t good metrics to look at for this reason. For example, do you actually believe that Aff Locks just did no damage in ToV when compared to NH and ToS which came immediately before/after? Do you believe Blizzard had a couple patches that nerfed, and then unnerfed Aff a couple months later or do you think the 95% parsers took that raid off because it’s not actually a raid tier?
Also, I’m not sure why you’re taking every spec into account. As long as Warlocks have 1 spec in the top 5, that’s all I’m concerned about. If you knew how to read, you probably would have figured that out. They have had 1 spec in the top 5 for every single TIER (ToV and CoS are NOT tiers! Super happy we cleared this up for you ) aside from SoD.
WRONG! Crucible of Storms and Trial of Valor aren’t tiers. Can you tell how happy I am that you decided to be ignorant yet smug about those raids? Sanctum of Domination was terribly unbalanced. Some classes had to wait until late in the raid to realize their full power. It’s a terrible example to use and unironically is the ONLY tier since at least Highmaul in which Locks don’t have a top 5 spec.
You didn’t actually rebuttal anything because nothing I said was wrong
So this information is out there. People play Warlock because of how strong it is and I enjoy reminding Warlock players of this. Which is why when I make an objective post about how strong Warlocks have been over the years in comparison to every other class, Warlocks come out of the woodwork to defend their class. If they actually just liked the feel and/or the class fantasy, they wouldn’t mind their class being average every now and again.
Warlocks don’t have any punches to roll with. They always have a top 5 spec ready to go. That’s the entire purpose of this post.
You realize that he went through every raid tier and confirmed that Locks had a top 5 spec in all of them aside from Sanctum of Domination, right? I swear Warlock players have missing brain cells.
Actually NH was after ToV, same for Aff locks actually doing competitive damage. See, the entirety of Legion before NH, Aff locks had their artifact weapon not working in the way it was intended. Affliction Artifact weapon summoned souls all throughout Alpha and Beta, then 2 weeks before the game went live they changed the weapon to just not spawn the actual souls and auto count the souls. This didn’t help because in order for the artifact weapon to do anything you actually needed to get the killing blow, which was the whole point of spawning the souls. You got the KB which triggered the weapon and gave you souls, but when they took that away then Affliction could not get KBs going into EN and even into ToV. For NH, they changed it to where as long as you did damage to the mob, doesn’t matter how much, it counted as if you got the killing blow.
Now before this, Affliction was bottom 3 specs, only above Frost Mage and Frost DK. Once they changed this to match the weapon so it would work functionally and not be a detriment, then Aff shot up to the top spot since it was able to have 90-100% uptime on the weapon. This is why Affliction was broken during Legion, and it was broken in both ways. At first it was broken because the artifact ability just didn’t proc due to them removing ghosts so you couldn’t proc it without KBs, which was impossible vs burst specs. Then they broke it in the entire opposite way, thus overpowering it and yeah…cause blizz logic.
No, they did raid competitively, they just didn’t play Affliction when people figured out your artifact ability was useless due to never proccing it. This is why blizz changed it into the opposite way, it was left like that for 2 raid tiers; EN and ToV, and then they changed it to actually working in NH. It was not “nerfed” it was just broken and next to impossible to proc, thus being less than useless.
Because you have an odd fixation on Warlocks. We are awesome, sure, but you have a very big fixation on it.
They are raid tiers, actually, though smaller.
They are tiers, yes. If it’s a raid, it’s a tier. It doesn’t matter how good or bad the gear is or what drops, it doesn’t matter how short or long the raid or fights are. If it’s a raid, it’s a raid tier.
This happens every raid tier, Sanctum was not an exception or anything.
No, it’s one that proves your point, just stop being jelly, enjoy the class.
My post proved some of what you are saying is right and some of what you are saying is wrong. I just laid out the facts according to the logs that you keep referencing, except you left out the couple where warlocks didn’t do so good.
I pulled the logs of every raid that warcraftlogs had available. You can’t really designate calling it a raid tier anymore because that used to be derived from actual tier dropping in the raid, and if it didn’t drop in the raid it wasn’t a raid tier, but tier only just came back since Legion? The term has carried on and is used basically to just reference the raid. So I don’t know why you thought I was ignorant or smug?
I am sorry if you thought I read what you wrote wrong, maybe you should have phrased it better. Saying “It’s very rare for any non-Warlock spec to be in the top 5.” is quite clearly what you said, now if you said “It’s very rare for any Warlock spec to not be in the top 5.” I would agree with you.
Of course warlocks are going to come defend their class, any class will defend their class. It is called pride and we all have it. I am not going to say there are not things I wished they didn’t change about warlock, but nothing is perfect and everyone likes different flavors.
Maybe there just isn’t enough good players playing shamans? If Destro receiving a 5% buff and going from 2nd to last to 1st place isn’t a telling story, IDK what is. Getting a really good tier bonus helped a ton too.
If you want to have a polite discussion I am all for it but it doesn’t seem like you want to. Going over your post history you are very negative to almost everyone you talk to. Try spreading some positivity? Go to the ptr discussion and advocate for shamans to be buffed.
Yeah and ehh it’s not really pride, it’s just more people don’t like complainers and when you see one, you gotta poke them. Personally, I play a spec, not a class and I play Affliction. I don’t care whether it does good damage or bad, I just care whether it’s actually fun to play or not to me and sadly, this expansion and BFA both have had Affliction sucking for play style. I prefer rot style and MR isn’t it, Legion was with MG and whatnot. No, WB is not MG as MG powers all DoTs for channeling your filler into it, not powers your filler for having DoTs up.
Destro the big dmg buff but also Destro is still just random slot machine, too.
I do understand where they’re coming from, as Shamans don’t have a lot of defensives, nor big defensives I don’t think so going from something barely able to live, if at all, to something that can live through most mechanics easily is a big leap.
Again, though, when people complain most people get annoyed at the complaint and complainer but also just want to poke the person to agitate them more. It’s fun to do with complainers.
) aside from SoD.