Warcraft: Sylvanas spoilers

I want to talk about the book, but no one has it yet :frowning:

I guess that’s the major downside of getting a copy early.

Also Zahir i found another example, “Sylvanas was already as good as I am years ago. Better. Better, maybe, than I will ever be.” - Alleria says this on page 74 of the new novel.

Sylvanas is a better archer than Alleria, even Alleria thinks so.

But then her mother follows this up that yes she’s a better archer but she doesn’t have the dedication to be a better leader, which becomes the fuel that makes Sylvanas want to prove her mother wrong and why we now have one of the best most dedicated faction leaders in the whole game.

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Very frustrating that it’s out tomorrow or Tuesday. Had a client cancel on me so I’m up to a whole lot of nothing. Be a great opportunity to read the book.

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I’d be willing to share more spoilers. was there anything I didn’t cover in detail? it’s Sunday and I have nothing better to do.

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Still undecided on whether or not the Arbiter actually sent Sylvanas to the Maw when she killed herself

Does the book more heavily lean in a given direction?

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I don’t think anything will top the eels.

And I’m equal parts excited and dreading. Golden just doesn’t seem all that interested in the Forsaken. I was really hoping Roux would get a swing at it because that random upstanding Apothecary was such a cool moment in SR.

They used to run the gambit between completely insane and basically normal doctors and scientist. There’s that one in Thrallmar actually trying to figure out if Fel Orcs can be cured. He’s not trying to weaponize them or create some super pathogen. He’s just a medical researcher.

You need that to balance the rest out. If they’re all cackling madmen it’s no longer believable people would come to them with their problems.

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I beleive this goes back to how Wow’s quests are designed. a game like fallout has a type of organized structure to its quest design that WoW lacks. Outside the main quest lines the writers seem to have very little oversight into what the make into a quest, and can do what they wish so long as it rewards the aloted rewards they need to give out… Which is why we get the weird mixture.

There’s a recount of her encounter atop Icecrown with the Valkyir before jumps to her death off Icecrown but it’s interrupted with an Interlude with Anduin.Chatper 21 is all about what happens after she gets to the maw and there is not an interaction with the Arbiter. She like Arthas says all she saw was darkness, then she woke up in the Maw.

can you re-phrase your question about direction of the book? are you asking if it makes her sympathetic?

The torture she experienced in the Maw was not just physical torture but emotional. The book verbatim seems to mirror the experience she had in Edge of Night with slight changes. When she’s ready to make a deal with the Valkyir she yells Enough! and it’s not the white light of the Valkyir that saves her from torment as depicted in Kosak’s work, but the Jailer standing before her.

The jailer tells her, her decisons she made in life brought her here, and then she asks if he was also here because of his choices and he explains that he’s the jailer. That’s the only indication at all that Sylvanas had been judged, that somehow her choices up until Edge of Night had lead her to the Maw but most of the decisions were made while under the domination of the Jailer through Arthas so he’s an unreliable narrator.

It’s likely that the Jailor had the mawsworn pluck Sylvanas as her soul was entering the Shadowlands and they brought her to him. but that’s just speculation. Still no confirmed judgement by the Arbiter.

It seems like the Jailer chose her because he saw someone who had built a reputation on breaking control, (breaking his own control mostly) that’s essentially what he wanted to do, he wanted to break his own chains and break the Shadowlands. Whether Sylvanas was worthy or not of judgement, or was judged is moot, if he bypassed the Arbiter and made her believe that this was yet another prison she needed to break free from.

Contextually it’s important to note that prior to her going to Icecrown she goes back to her family home and questions her choices over everything she’s done since breaking control of Arthas. There’s important dialogue which suggests that the Jailer may have possibly used this and chose her as his next victim to manipulate. she says,

“I thought I was doing the right thing. I’ve thought that every time, every step. And it has been. I died protecting my people. I fought for my freedom. I reached out to friends who I thought would --”

"I did what I needed to do to ensure my survival and others like me. Sometimes, there are no good choices, but we are still made to choose."

When Sylvanas say that Sylvanas has never had a good choice we mean it, she usually has to choose between two choices in a lose/lose scenario, like the Broken Shore.

I feel like if that was the moment she stood before the Arbiter pleading her case and not pleading her case to her brother’s grave. She would have been granted mercy by the Arbiter. By denying her judgement, and playing on her strengths for his own selfish gain, the jailer may have stolen her chance at fair judgement.

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I am going to stick with the idea the Val’kyr did what the kyrians did to Arthas and absconded with her soul, then.

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And I am forgiving of that up until a point. It’s a MMO, other players could always ruin the drama by running in from stage left in hot pink armor making Choo Choo noises.

But when it apparently had to be explained to them that rounding up and executing civilians probably wouldn’t be fun, I start to worry.

And the thing is I’ve villainous characters. And they’re made more fun by the game sort of assuming you’re a hero.

Yeah let’s have this sneering mad woman and her gruesome coterie of slavering monsters waltz around Hyjal unsupervised. There’s some sorta Azerite problem here and I guess she’s the only one who can handle it. See she laughs in the face of danger - or is just really into mutilating that corpse. Either way this seems fine

But having my Chaotic Good Priest who hangs out in Bloodhoof providing pro bono medical work stand idly by while they firebomb a civilian population center is kinda the opposite of fun. That wouldn’t even by fun on the DK. You can’t torture ash to feed off their misery.

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And you know I would love this - if they had a vaguely breaking the fourth wall esque type of comment after the meditating on war and then said “Oh Well. We need their pants! Go murder hobo go!”

At least having the NPC acknowledging how jarring it is can make it work.

Right now it’s like having the middle of Old Soldier have Zappy Boi tell Saurfang that he has a special recipe for a potion to fix his memories so he forgets about slaughtering people but he needs ingredients from piles of poop around. Then after digging through scat, having a cartoonish Saurfang rage into battle full of pride for the Horde.

Holy cow that would actually make Saurfang at Lordaeron make more sense.

And later he became mopey because the potion wasn’t permanent and Zappy Boi tells him the potion wasn’t real. It was all Saurfang remembering honor and fighting! At which point Saurfang asks what was actually in the potion and why he had to dig through poop…

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Yeah my question was whether Agatha chucked Sylvanas to the Maw or if it was a legitimate Arbiter judgment

I want to believe the former but I don’t trust Golden lmao

IRL too many people believe killing yourself damns you even though that’s incorrect theology

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This is certainly one big issue with WoW, it is not so much a world as a “expansion zones are the only important thing and everything else is frozen in time”. Legion at least tried to make it feel more like a world with quests in several zones(Duskwood, Pandaria, Aszhara, Undercity, Stromgarde etc)

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That’s completely absurd. I should not have to explain to people why doing things to a playable race will be treated differently than doing things to a non-playable race and it has nothing to do with whether or not it’s literally your avatar.

By that logic, Night Elves shouldn’t complain about Teldrassil because it’s not like anything happened to their avatar. Forsaken players shouldn’t complain about, idk, the Scarlet Crusade because it’s not like anything happened to their avatar.

noun, plural bul·lies.

a blustering, mean, or predatory person who, from a perceived position of relative power, intimidates, abuses, harasses, or coerces people, especially those considered unlikely to defend themselves

This is exactly what the Forsaken were doing in Hillsbrad, and what they were going to be doing to the Night Elves on the PTR until it was removed. The justification that Benedikt gives is literally “but it’s funny.”

It’s not funny to people who identify with the victims, and this is a major problem that the Horde as a whole has. They frequently come off as bullies who deliberately target people who can’t defend themselves just because they feel like it, or with the absolute barest veneer of justification. It’s exactly the thing that turns me, and many other people, off of the faction.

If there MUST be a playable group intended to indulge a bullying/griefing fantasy, the absolute least that Blizzard could do is make the targets not representative of a playable race or faction.

In Legion, if you’re a Mage, one of the things happening at the Broken Shore encampment is a bunch of mages repeatedly polymorphing a Burning Legion cultist. Every time that they tries to say something, they cut them off with a polymorph. Occasionally, the victim will exclaim “my bones!” which implies that doing this to them is very painful, tantamount to torture.

I didn’t like this. It made me uncomfortable. But at the very least, the target was a Burning Legion follower who it can be fairly assumed did or would do similar things to others if they got the chance. Forsaken can do stuff like that in their own content against PvE bad guys if they absolutely HAVE to indulge in a petty bullying fantasy.

But that people would object to them doing that to representatives of their own group is insanely predictable and it’s nuts to me that you and 8 other people apparently can’t comprehend that.

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True I actually went and did a bunch of Class Hall stuff in BFA. Largely for the mounts tbh but I also found a lot of the stories really interesting.

In particular the Rogue and DK ones were a highlight. Especially the Rogue mount finale where you’ve assassination targets in the other faction’s cities. Their homunculi but nobody knows that so you’ve to just go for it.

Last one is intense. Auction House person in Org/SW. It’s obviously a suicide mission but managing to take that guy out moments before I was obliterated by the Blue players so I could get my raven flyer was a real highlight.

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I think the book leans with the suggestion that Sylvanas does not deserved to be judged for what she did under domination, but she still has to help atone of all she did.

It’s not #Sylvanasdidnothingwrong, but it’s a fair judgement that she’s not responsible for killing people under mind control and a rational Arbiter would understand that the jailer manipulated her and tried to make her kill hope, and he almost succeeded.

A rational Arbiter would weigh her decisions against the fact that she didn’t have a better choice. But I do think that she deserves strict punishment but one that she will inflict on herself with guilt and shame.

Committing suicide is not a sin in World of Warcraft. It’s not worthy of eternal damnation.

Oh I’m sorry. Did that bring up hurtful memories of the time you were turned into goo?

I do not comprehend how I’ve to explain to a grown man why there is a difference between impossible fantasy violence, and rounding up civilians and executing them in the center of town.

Nobody has ever been turned into a sheep then exploded. That’s not a thing. An occupying army forcing civilians into a concentration camp on the otherhand- kinda loaded imagery.

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That’s literally exactly what the Forsaken did in Hillsbrad. Every single word that you posted here is applicable to it.

And that loaded imagery was played for comedy. Do you find the loaded imagery funny or are you just incapable of seeing it? Is it because you don’t process human victims the same way you process Night Elf victims?

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God I hope you are this much of a warrior for racial inequality irl Ain, or you are just wasting your last braincell fighting fantasy racism.

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Yes please do regail me about your grandma’s horrific survival story about being trapped in the giant spider mines in occupied Lithuania.

I can see why you’re so moody. Must be hard getting around wearing clown shoes.

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The loaded imagery of an occupying force herding captive civilians into a death camp based on their ethnicity to be experimented on is wacky and funny as long as you sprinkle a couple of memeable jokes like Johnny Awesome onto it.

Then when anyone objects to the premise of the scenario, you can use the “its just a prank bro” defense to try to paint them as the insufferable stick in the mud who just hates having fun

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