They are proof however that Arthas was a much victim of circumstance as anyone else. It doesnt matter if they all merge eventually. He got unlucky that in the main time he ended up getting picked by Ner’zhul to be a patsy.
So I originally had a different response to your earlier reply, but I think I’m starting to see what you’re saying… And I don’t necessarily disagree. But Arthas, like characters such as Garrosh, Gul’dan, Sargeras, and so forth, is also a victim of his own choices. His own free will. We know canonically, beyond doubt that Arthas was in control of Arthas. Ner’zhul tried and failed to control him. Zovaal failed too. Arthas’s actions were Arthas’s own, according to the current canon (until the next retcon at least). Ner’zhul and Mal’ganis might have led Arthas to a dark path, but it was Arthas who chose to walk down it. It was Arthas who chose not to turn back at every opportunity.
So I think, to a degree, you’re right. Partly Arthas is a victim of circumstances, partly Arthas is a victim of his own choices.
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It’s not canon lore. It’s something Golden said in a writer’s interview offhand at Blizzcon.
What specifically did she say?
And one can say the same of Sylvanas. So again, where they so different?
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I don’t exactly remember. The Evolution of Thrall panel at Blizzconline 2020 is hard to find on Youtube but I’m pretty sure that’s where she said it. She said she would like to write an AU if they let her where Arthas marries Jaina and has a son.
I was big into conspiracy speculation with friends at the time where we were convinced Anduin was Arthas’s son so I remember that.
Unless I am mistake, this would be it, and it wasn’t actually hard to find. Also, it is 2021 apperently.
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Personally? I’d say the soul-split for starters. As soon as Sylvanas was whole, she immediately felt regret. This strongly implies, if not outright states, that a whole Sylvanas would have acted differently.
I’d also point the finger at their reasonings; Arthas wanted power and control. Sylvanas wanted to fix a system that is flawed and unfair (and power and control too, obviously). And we see it is throughout the Shadowlands. As soon as she realized, pre-soul merge, that Zovaal wasn’t really going to try and do that? She rebelled. It’s an “ends justify the means” argument, and it absolutely does not make what she did right, but it does lend itself to the possibility for, if not redemption, then at least a path towards atonement in some measure.
I’m going to reiterate because people have a tendency to ignore it; this does not mean what Sylvanas did was not horrible!!! It was horrible. It was unforgivable. But being forgiven is not a requirement for atonement and potentially redemption.
At no point on Arthas’s journey did he question. At no point did he rebel against the darkness. At no point did he waver in his path. Even when he realized he was being manipulated, he carried on.
That, I think, is the major difference.
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Arthas wanted to save his people, his desire for power and control was born from his desire to actually save the people that were depending on him.
Except we did see a portion of him, his child self, trying to get him to change. We learned he had to cut out his own heart because it was giving him trouble. Had things been different, had we actually managed to steal his heart back then, who knows what could have happened to Arthas.
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While that is true in our commentary, Sylvanas is being written as a victim of trauma, whereas Arthas was written as a fall from grace.
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Can’t he be both? A Victim of the trauma of not being able to save the his people?
True, but in the end, he still chose power and control over his people.
But that’s the thing; Arthas saw those troublesome feelings, and Arthas chose to purge them from himself. That’s what I’m talking about; at every fork in the road, it was Arthas’s own choice to go down the dark path. He literally ejected from himself those things that might have led him towards redemption or atonement.
Yes, if we had found those things Arthas chose to cast away from himself, we might have forced him down a path of atonement. Or he might have rejected those feelings he’d already rejected once more. Matthias Lehner was the physical manifestation of what little good remained in him, and only existed because Arthas wanted nothing to do with it.
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In the end of Arthas: Rise if the Lich King. He kills that child, (the same way he killed Sylvanas, it’s a metaphor for killing hope, those themes are repeated in her story her death is called “the day hope died” in the BE Hertitage Questline)
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He is. Though the overarching themes of the stories as written are not that.
Like… you are 100% right. You put Arthas in Morgan’s story in TWD and he supports that few people are truly evil.
But in WC3 his trauma is a matter of his perspective and his world view. He struggles, as a child of privilege, to cope with the feelings of helplessness. To manage the dilemma between morality and duty. Stratholme sends him down a path that leads to full villainy.
It is a very different commentary than Sylvanas’ victimhood tropes.
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One could say the same of Sylvanas, she ultimately did choose pursuing her goals over the good of the Forsaken.
As oppose to Sylvanas? She claimed in Warcrime she would expunge her caring part. Had Zovaal not been petty, she would have willingly followed him and help him doom the universe. Another proof, that circumstances beyond one self can have profound effects, if not be the deciding factor of who gets redeemed or not.
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Her motives though were to remake the universe so as they would have justice. They are not comparable.
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I already said that Sylvanas wanted power and control, but also to “fix the broken system” of death.
Sylvanas would have, but didn’t. Arthas already did. That’s the key difference.
I’ve already agreed that does play a part. So too does one’s own choices. Arthas made the choice to make himself literally irredeemable by casting away whatever goodness he might have had. Sylvanas still had that inside her, because part of it had been severed and returned and what remained, she never chose to cast out.
Choices matter as much as circumstances. If not more.
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Sylvanas being a victim is absolutely true but she evolved past that starting from cataclysm and until the shadowlands finale. Arthas or the trauma did not make her do what she did to her victims… it was like a 1:1 based on actions alone. A small measure of self awareness would have been enough to avoid this
The only difference here is that she didn’t get horny over it but a sick satisfaction and pleasure? Absolutely.
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She does though. That’s what makes it even weirder. The entire book is her trying to explain to Anduin why he should willingly join them. Badly, mind you, but still.
She doesn’t want to mind control him. Which would be understandable otherwise but at this point she’s done so much heinous ish that really what’s it matter? But he reminds her of her baby brother so, she tries to reason with the Golden Child.
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She’s not a person. She’s a character on a somewhat sloppily told narrative with various writers, and this book— as well as the SL cinematics— try to reconcile those narratives. It brings the narrative back to victim becomes the abuser, which makes it the theme of the entire story.
We would all be forgiven for thinking her story in Legion, was victim becomes an anti hero. That Vol’jin’s undeserved confidence in Sylvanas gave her the opportunity to rise to the occasion. That she kept her edge, and dark nature, but she turned her unique strengths, and what otherwise might be considered flaws, to the well being of her people, while sacrificing her own assets for the good of the horde. And thats what sucks about retcons. Our understanding of the narrative is pulled out from under us, and we have to accept that and pretend that this was the story all along. Its like a joke that poses as a story, where the moral is more of a punchline than an actual message.
That in mind, Sylvanas story is not at all like Arthas’ because the message is different. While the facts are similar the story is not.
Kind of like killing Night Elves, vs Killing Blood Elves.
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I will always be a bit bitter that this was not what we got, because many of us were sure this was true.
It was true at one point.
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