And that’s how it should be. Because it lets the players tell their own story in the WORLD of Warcraft.
So many people are obsessed by the war in warcraft but forgot the first word is World
2 Likes
Until Headcannon smashes into eachother for personal RP, as can happen. And I’ll be blunt, I’ve never felt less invested in the WORLD of Warcraft then I do now. Because Blizz refuses to maintain and build on what they’ve already created; they merely undermine and abandon it for the “Shiny” and “New”. Over and over and over again. Exploring the Dragon Isles feels so empty when so much of my investment as a player, and Character RP level, isn’t on these islands. And rather what I was invested in, rebuilding my character’s peoples and faction, was something Blizz found too troublesome and time skipped it.
If the WORLD of Warcraft is the point, why is it that Blizz seems to care so little for it?
They care. They just aren’t and can’t appease everyone. Just look at DF, people either are really loving it or thinks it’s one of the worst expansions.
And I honestly don’t blame blizz for not trying to appease everyone. It’s a loosing battle. You not not being invested is a personal issue and not something blizz is doing wrong currently
Because based on what I been hearing, people are enjoying this expansion. It’s just the faction partisans who seem to be taking issue with the new expansion
1 Like
I wouldn’t hold my breath for them doing something intelligent.
But, I do think this dragon flying mechanic is going to necessitate revisiting older content. Personally I’m out if they try to wing clip us and I doubt I’m the only one of that opinion. Suddenly losing old flight was jarring but not inherently insulting, imo, because it did stone cold kill any sense of exploration. It was basically post game free mode where you could bypass the world they made because it’s old now so you’ve stopped engaging with it.
This though fundamentally upgrades the way we engage with the world. I’ve barely even used my hearthstone because why would I want to bypass the miracle of flight?
So, if I was in charge, I’d do the time skip then send our little butts offshore so there’s enough of a time gap to explain away a revamped world when we return in a few years.
Facts are most people aren’t going to care about the rebuilding process itself. That’s all fodder for the multimedia products obsessive weirdos like yours truly buy. John Q. Subscriber probably doesn’t care so just say an amount of time passed and now the world’s all rebuilt and shiny and new.
1 Like
As I have said previously I don’t really care how much dog doodoo we were both forced to eat.
You eating doodoo does not bring me pleasure.
My sole problem is that the Horde has done some objectively evil things to the Alliance and have no answered for it so things like attending a wedding is bizarre.
Allow me to reframe it in the same context but for the purge.
imagine Jaina getting married to AU Yrel and they invite the Maghar Orcs and Sunreavers to their beautiful ceremony.
I doubt either Aethas and Geyah should be shown as very, very happy to be attending or being invited to such a ceremony.
Instead, if we want to take the “lets just move along” but without ignoring anything we would have Jaina and AU Yrel kind of saying sorry to Aethas and Geyah and explaining why they did what they did and why they are goon now.
I want the Horde players stop being shamed and I want Alliance player to stop self-victimizing themselves. Just look at Tyrande in the new cinematic she is literally hunched over and broken. Enough already.
I don’t take pleasure for tyrande searing at you and I doubt you take pleasure in me seeing tyrande hunched over and just wanting to kill herself.
If Horde players are being humbled by being forced to apologize then Alliance players are being forced to accepting that apology. Yeah its been done before but at least for once its actually real instead of implied. Lets all get humbled and move on because continuing the faction war and killing or destroying more places is not worth it.
If the entire identity of the Horde is based on being mean to the Alliance and killing them. Then good. Dilute it all and delete it. Its not worth keeping.
There is room for faction conflict in the game, but they’ve not got the capacity to pull it off. I’ve actually had this discussion with you before, though, which basically amounts to the Alliance not forgiving and the Horde not rolling over and hand-wringing. The conflict would need to be a B-Plot told through occasional skirmishes.
Trouble is, they can’t and won’t do any of that. Their takeaway from the mess that was BFA onward is that “faction conflict is bad and shouldn’t happen anymore” instead of “holy crap we tried retreading the worse parts of MoP in an even more hamfisted, nonsensical way that ruined every character involved and both factions.” Swept under the rug is probably the best we can hope for by now and hope more care is given to the narrative going forward. I’m hopeful faction pride can become a thing again with Metzen back in the mix, but that will depend on a lot of factors I have no way of knowing.
The best time to have done this, would have been while we were in the SLs itself. But, y’know, I think of story crap like this. And how best to make the best of what we have.
Thing is, I’m finding it harder and harder to get invested in the “New”, after so many rounds of Blizz destroying and abandoning the “Old”. As much of an MMO as WoW is, its still also supposed to be an RPG too. But I’m not supposed to care about the Characters, because Blizz either plot devices or abandons them. I’m not supposed to care about the Cultures, because Blizz tramples over them in the name of the story. I’m not supposed to care about the Factions period, because “Faction Conflict Bad”. I’m not supposed to care about the Old Zones, because they cease to be supported after they cease being new. And I’m not supposed to care about the Lore, because it needs to get retconned every few years for a new expac.
All I’m apparently supposed to care about is “the feeling of exploration”, and “What headcannon RP I can fill a sandbox with”. Never mind how many times I’ve done that before, only for Blizz’s story department come in and destroy it; then tell me I should move on. What about this World am I supposed to care about?
Tuskarr. 10/10 firing on all cylinders consistently, my tuskyfams.
2 Likes
That would be better from a story perspective.
But why would they sink so many resources into revamping the old world if they don’t have fresh content to fill it with?
DF seems like a proof of concept for almost a WoW 2 to me. I probably haven’t played WoW this much since I was in high school. There’s just endless content that for once is so accessible.
The solo shuffle is inspired. Now I can do rated without the hassle of having to synchronize watches with people across the country. As were the changes to the pvp gear itself. The IVL stays the same but you can boost the stats. Meaning you have a reason to push rating but it doesn’t feel like you’re sinking fast for not achieving 1800+ as quick as everyone else.
The overworld is filled with a cornucopia of activies that builds on itself to unlock even more ish to do. It’s the Italian grandmother effect of already starting with a huge amount on your plate but more and more keeps coming.
Everything has a progression system. You can’t pick a flower without getting some skill point. There are fractal amount of unlocks in this to the point where I genuinely wonder if I’ll ever actually see everything it has to offer.
This new system actually seems like a good reason to revisit Azeroth proper. Because if they manage to rebuild it in a way where just exploring can be thrilling and every single task no matter how trivial builds on itself to something neat, then we are in for a very good time.
I really can’t bring myself to get grumpy about much. I’m playing WoW because it’s a genuinely good game again not because I’ve an unhealthy obsession with the Forsaken and a severe case of sunk cost fallacy syndrome.
3 Likes
Did we? I guess I forgot my b.
I guess my problem is I don’t understand people saying their faction is being diluted by talking about the past events.
Like there is no issue bringing up the losses like South Shore, theramore, teldradsil by the victims. The dragonmaw guy brings up the Day of Dragon events… so there is no dilution from there. I know people have talked about this and said they think it sucks being reminded but I just don’t understand how it dilutes or hurts the image of the Horde.
The image is already broken, this is just trying to put the pieces back together.
Because the storylines that delivered Alliance catching Ls always culminates in most of our roster dying off or being shuffled away and The Great and Worrisome Anduin Sniffer Baine having a good cry about how much he hates the Horde, which itself is buried in the pendulum swing of Horde being irredeemable villains and then depressed apology tours. Because Baine is not the heart of the Horde despite the narrative wanting to insist it is so. Because the appeal of the Horde was a hodgepodge of monsters-but-not with rough edges who were overeager to throw down but honor driven or pragmatic enough not to follow in the footsteps of the original Horde.
More simply put, no one wants to spend an expansion or two watching the apology tour for bad writing they didn’t want and had no say in. I would love for the writing to be capable of handling the themes involved in a way that makes every player feel good about their faction, but it straight up ain’t happening without some drastic shakeups to both the writing team and their processes.
2 Likes
What you say makes no sense.
I struggle to even understand what you are referencing or even talking about… like what do you even imagine is being done, said on the screen in this hypothetical exercise where we imagine the Horde trying to make amends through diplomacy.
Sylvanas got judged, she willingly threw herself into hell like some saint trying to undo her own wrong. Nathanos got killed off but Sylvanas promises to bring him back, Gallywix is on an interdimensional business trip and who knows where he will end up.
So who is it that you think is supposed to die on this apology tour? Tyrande didn’t even get to beat up Sylvanas or the humiliate the Horde in an duel or armed conflict. Darkshore was confirmed to be won via text and Tyrande lost to Sylvanas… I think the chapters of who will die and what takes taken away are long gone.
If Blizzard can keep writing about NEs being sad about losing something that may I remind you neither of us had a hand in. Why can’t they show the Horde being sad and actually behaving like people with some damn empathy?
I keep hearing about people saying “Oh man our identity is ruined and we are monsters”… ok so how about your characters stop behaving like douchebags for once but nah, we don’t like apology tours.
I would argue that Baine IS the current Heart and Best of the Horde. But, what the Horde is functionally to Blizz. A worthless plot device. Meant to be used by the story without any consideration for its own characterization needs, and set aside and forgotten once its done. And who can only prove themselves “not evil” by how convenient and submissive they make themselves for members of the Alliance.
Baine is not a writers Pet. Worse, he’s a Pet of a Writers Pet. Who’s own characterization needs are always set aside for the stories needs to use him. Then forgotten. And unlike the Horde (the unhinged, motiveless Villains), Baine’s job is as the “Token Good Horde” Plot Device that Blizz turns to to pretend their writing is inclusive to the Red Faction. But, not so inclusive that his content isn’t always the first thing cut when cuts are needed.
Like the Horde, when its not being villain batted, Baine is there … but nothing more.
3 Likes
Baine only exists to make the Horde look monsterous by comparison.
1 Like
Nope. The Alliance in their current virtue incarnate state does that without him just fine. What Baine is for, is quickly what Lor’themar is becoming for. A “Token Good Horde”. To throw into a scene to give the barest minimum illusion that the story is being written with the Horde considered; but nothing beyond that. Baine, at his core character concept, had the makings of a GREAT Horde character. But the more Blizz started Villain batting the red faction PURELY to create new stories and expacs, the more a counterbalance was needed to justify why the Horde should continue to exist at all after that batting was done.
Thus, the Character of Baine was consumed by the “Token Good Horde” role he’d increasingly have to fill. While also not being SO good that he’d ever be in a position to actually interfere with what the Faction was being forced to do for the story. So, he’d also had to remain “convenient”. And as Anduin is all that is goodness and righteousness, picking up new Sue traits every patch he was in (especially in SLs) … what better way to show a Token Good Horde as Good than by making him an accessory to Anduin? Baine’s current state, much like so much else, is due to pure, unadulterated laziness from the writers.
2 Likes
I feel stupid that either I am not seeing the answer being told to me or i am seeing something that yall are willingly ignoring.
If the writers finally stop treating the horde like a tool to drive the plot with a token character and actually have multiple Horde characters actually having a concious, empathy and humility for past canonical mistakes isn’t that a good thing?!?!?!
Like the dragon maw orc guy, did he dishonor the horde? Ruin their lore?
I just don’t get it.
Yeah, i know BFA sucked and you didn’t vote for it but thats not the point, its about salvaging it and then propely moving on.
Or we do it the Blizzard way… just keep moving on to the next shiny thing.
I was attempting to really drive home to you that this story has been dumping on The Horde at least as much as the Alliance.
We have seen exactly what this looks like, anyhow. It is following around an NPC finger wagging at the PCs and the Horde NPCs talking about how vigilant they will be about not doing the thing they keep doing because their brains shut off until after the bad story concludes and the plot needs some people to feel bad on screen to show that not all of them are bad. It is objectively dogturd and it plays like it.
I don’t want to waste time paying off story beats to honor the absolute worst writing this game has every seen. I would much rather dig out of this hole with bad writing (in this case, largely memory holing BFA and SL and focusing on something lighter) and build out from there with no more bad writing. If they can figure out a way to weave a narrative about the aftermath of this turdshow that doesn’t dump on one or both factions, I’m here for it.
1 Like
No its absolutely a great thing! It be even a better thing if the Alliance didn’t remain morality itself in this setting. Which they sadly, currently are. So that “What is Good” isn’t always relative to them. If Baine is the best representative of the current Horde, then Anduin absolutely is the same for the current Alliance. Which would allow characters like Baine to have a sense of goodness OUTSIDE of the Alliance.
I love the WC3 Horde. That rough around the edges, troubled past, but ultimately driven to improve and do good theme. But, as Blizz became increasingly comfortable villain batting the faction (without luxuries like motives), they’ve become increasingly uncomfortable showing the Alliance in any sort of negative light. But within a two faction game, if one faction IS the moral compass of the setting … then anything good that could possibly come from the other one is always seen through the lens of that moral compass.
I want the Horde to be allowed virtues again. Beyond “just being as submissive and convenient as virtue incarnate” the Blue Team. And I want the Alliance to be allowed to be aggressive, to be assertive, to be proactive, to be even antagonistic. Not villains, only bad writers conflate those sort of greyer traits with villainy. Amends must be made, but the moral center of this game can’t just remain in the Hands of the Blue Team.
1 Like
It wont really be finger waging, its more about how Horde soldiers were forced to follow orders they didn’t want to.
Horde leaders completely standing by and not doing anything about it even fighting a war for couple years without questioning their own motives or concious.
The player doesn’t really have anything to do with it besides major characters admitting to mistakes and hardship to make common ground with their victims so Tyrande or any other Alliance character is not insulting the Horde player for being Horde.
Its really about reasonbly explaining why the Horde is not all bad and the f up is due to completely understandble mistakes or system issues. If it was really the warchief position then expand on it why thats true.
This is what I keep saying but from your replies it seems you think I want solutions that would have been viable right after WoT or BFA. Thats all gone now, the only thing thats left is not flimsy “world is about to end” or “we are not allowed to fight here” to explain why Alliance leaders attend “evil” faction’s wedding party for no reason.
You are looking for a rational explanation for a series of events that were wholly irrational, and using the very example of what I deliberately mentioned as undesirable: a bunch of Horde being depressed about what they did. So more Saurfang and Thrall moping? No thanks. I want WC3/Vanilla Horde, and the peacenik council ain’t it.
Ultimately, I see very little value in attempting to pay off what was essentially Afrasiabi dragging his butt across the rug on the way out the door. I cannot wrap my head around treating bad canon as a sacred cow when the same company deliberately takes a sledgehammer to every piece of established lore each expansion. Especially in a game that has not one but TWO built in options to remake reality (The Sepulcher and Nozdormu/Murozond).
3 Likes