Yes that is what I am looking for if we had to simplify it, and peacenik Horde is exactly what is needed imo.
We have tried the edgy Horde warlike Horde. It didn’t work out and honestly Saurfang was the last guy that should have led that BFA story about the Horde finding itself story. The dude just refused to learn from his mistakes, he has no excuse.
And I want to repeat the Horde has never gone on an apology tour. They got lectured but they never apologized for anything. At least not that I saw.
The Alliance trajedy and cry tour though is very real and goes on for multiple expansions.
That will never happen.
Remember how the Alliance torched the Vulpera camps. Did that make sense?
You can’t give teeth to the Alliance if they can’t use them. Otherwise we are back to Alliance crying and being angey but still not doing anything about it.
And even if we give Alliance teeth. Who and where are they supposed to bite? That just sounds actually punishing the Horde players by taking something or someone away.
Actually, tbh, the current Horde council is comprised of arguably more WC3 in tone characters than we’ve had in ages. Its just that the Alliance has become so good and virtuous, that they’ve in effect become the moral compass of this game. So anything good often is seen in relation to them. But, I mean? Thrall? Rokhan? Gazlowe? These guys are WC3 legends. Rexxar’s officially back on top of this. I just wish they’d bring back Nazgrel.
Voss is a stellar character, I just wish Blizz wasn’t just clearly using her as a placeholder for Calia. Geya’rah, Kiro, Mayla, Talaanji, and Thaly are all good characters in concept. Blizz just would have to be willing to write and build on them. Lor is fine. And as I said, Baine was a great character in concept, but he’s never written as a character.
Like I want it so bad. My goodness I am one of those Horde players who would be perfectly fine just having the Alliance go on a rampage and get their pounds of flesh. Just so long as Blizz was willing to commit to it, allows that oppressive force to act as catalysts for much needed character growth for our characters, and doesn’t conflate “antagonist” or “aggressor” with “Villain”. Which I know is a BIG ask with them, but could you imagine how much the stories would improve overall if they just learned that latter lesson? Not even just with Faction stuff either, but with our seasonal Expac villains?
My guy, they abolished Warchief and rallied behind a side of beef whose only contribution to the setting is being obsessed with the High King of the opposing faction. Every glimpse of the Horde since the end of Shadowlands has been trying to make peace with The Alliance. 90% of The Horde’s visibility has been Baine and Elves. Probably because they can’t stop killing off everyone.
The only positive glimpse of Horde development re: maintaining identity is The Forsaken stuff, and even that is still on shaky ground.
And they all disappear into the shadow of Baine and Lor’themar so far. Except Thrall who isn’t Thrall. But hey, maybe Metzen involved will see the character return to form instead of being so mopey all the time.
I am sorry Kage, i have followed the BFA and SL story.
And while the player may have done some quests and events to remedy past wrongs the Horde has done almost nothing to explain why they participated in WoT, continued to fight in the war after WoT or make any amends to their victims as a faction and NPCs both directly and indirectly responsible for these illogical actions.
The best they have done is replace leaders and not explain why this is the solution in any real terms.
What pound of flesh even is there to take? Most of the main characters are gone, the cities have no strategic/lore value to take besides lordaeron. And any who should have been punished or killed is in the maw doing a hero’s work.
I don’t think there is anything to do besides giving the Horde the same justifiable reasoning the writers give the Alliance when they do aggressive things
We have never tried this. We have only ever had horde bamboozled through gaslighting and apparently charismatic moustachioed evil leader on a runaway train downhill to the inevitable and pointless civil war.
They aren’t evil. They just kind of had no choice because of X and Y.
So there is no more danger for another genocide #3 and the Horde characters aren’t evil.
I wouldn’t mind maybe some old characters getting a no confidence vote so new more interesting characters can take over.
Like Lorthemar resigning for his failures and Rommath takes over as regent
That is my point, though—it cannot be explained. None of them would have allowed this, but their brains shut off until it is time for the “not all of them are evil!” arc to spray onto the scene like the narrative diarrhea it is. If you’re not happy with them saying “sorry, I wasn’t paying attention then but I feel bad about it now, sorry thx” you are not going to get any closure.
No thought is given to these story beats beyond it needing to happen. It is why NElves will never get a pay off—they didn’t anticipate how much those players would backlash. They spent the back half of BFA and most of SL twisting in the wind to arrive at… resetting the tree with the dead souls that were conveniently not ground into dust by Zovaal for rEaSoNs. It is why we still have utterly no clue or closure with Vol’jin, who died in LEGION.
I think you and I probably want the same thing ultimately, but just have different ideas about what the path there looks like. The Alliance has to be allowed to get their hands dirty, though. I just really hope Metzen’s involvement is more than just lore advice. If not, something like DF is a far safer path.
Not particularly. But I was speaking more towards both factions doing bad things for understandable reasons. That requires a lot more complexity than X goes nuts again and Y remains Lawful Stupid in perpetuity.
It is especially frustrating because Genn (and now Tyrande) and Talanji are the exact sort of kindling to lend itself to that, but y’know, stuff. Stuff and things.
I will extend them some grace by pointing out that they get their marching orders on the heels of some straight up bonkers expansion selection process.
“Hey, we want the players to meet all the old Horde Warlords in their prime. Make that make sense, chumps. Then kill or sideline whoever you need to so they can swing Ashbringer or Doomhammer around in the expansion after that.” Mental.
Honestly, I don’t get the hooplah over the Dragonmaw guy in Waking Shores. The writing seems objectively good in a vacuum, and I think I could’ve enjoyed it once upon a time if this had taken place in, say, WotLK. But I really can’t bring myself to appreciate it now. I did the full questline, but it just tired me at this point.
It can’t be salvaged. There is nothing that can be done to make it better. There is no explanation that will help—either for the Horde or the Alliance. Nothing the Horde characters can say will make Alliance players less angry or make Horde players feel better about the whole mess. It’s futile.
Its not really about the players. I don’t care, I just want a reasonable explanation why Alliance characters would actually attend some horde warlord’s wedding despite everything that has transpired. Or even why Horde would invite some Alliance to their wedding, it makes no sense.
And that is done, in my opinion, the Horde actually exhibiting some human responses like empathy and regret to try and amend past crimes.
If the Alliance and Horde are forced to get along in the future as Blizzard seems to intend, they have to world build for it, otherwise they should be at each other’s throats and flipping the bird to the opposite faction’s player character for their supposed crimes. Like at this point neutral organizations like Kirin Tor and Cenarion circle shouldn’t even exist.
