Eh.
As it was pointed out, there isn’t any actual case in which they were. Only a threat of it.
And regardless, they didn’t “Kill arcane users on sight.” Only if the broke the law, they would of executed if they were found guilty.
This is the reason the Shen’dralar actually spared by Shadris.
Like I said, it took that tragedy for them to accept them. It literally took them years to earn that acceptence.
No. It was removed as a natural progression of a culture becoming a part of a larger world that was toxic and a hindrance, to both lore and as a society.
Coming back full circle to the topic, Racism a “major cultural element” of America but no one (but a few) Lament it’s passing.
Then I’m never going to convince you of something you’ve convinced yourself of.
I think WoW Vanilla still had a lot of the problematic elements that Warcraft had, including the strict gender-binary and gender-roles written into the Night Elves due to the basis of their religion on (Neo)Wiccan beliefs.
But the change in 2010 (confirmed via a Night Elf artifact solve) came about during a “national crisis” regarding transgender people.
And internal to neopagan spheres, there was multiple online drama regarding "TERF"s in pagan spaces.
So I think the change (which was a change), was good and necessary and the prior assumed standard (strict gender divisions in night elf society) should not be defended due to the real-world material realities.
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The change didn’t come about in 2010. The change came about in 2004. The artifact just commemorated that the gender barriers were doing down. This didn’t of course mean that they eroded completely, and it certainly didn’t comment, refer to, accommodate, or include anything regarding transgender characters or concerns.
In 2010 you did start to see more male sentinels and female druids, granted. I’m not as attached to the strict restrictions as Aki might be, but I don’t think this is the reason for the change, nor do I see it as resolving what you’re pointing to.
Nah prior to this, people were saying “Gameplay permissibility of night elf male priests doesn’t mean that in-lore they are allowed to be priests”
The statue formally confirmed that there was a Night Elf reform movement 2000 years ago.
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No, practicing arcane was literally punishable by death.
Practicing Arcane was against the law. So if they saw someone practicing arcane, they killed them on sight…
The Shen’dralar were in hiding form 10k years, because they didn’t want to be killed.
That is your headcanon, not the reality.
Not during Vanilla WoW. Kaldorei matriarchy is, even still, a major cultural staple point that makes the Kaldorei unique in the world they inhabit. A lot of people wanted to play Night Elves for that reason.
If you can’t prove your claim, then it’s a false claim.
I am making no such claims. Like I said, Paladins existed for Night Elves previously and there’s no reason Delas couldn’t follow in their footsteps and STILL worship Elune.
Both of these statements is incorrect. Night Elf themes and culture are intact and Humans haven’t been written for AT ALL for close to 10 years. Blizzard has completely abandoned even writing human stories in favor of Horde, which they seam to only care about.
I mean, people still say that to one degree or another. People say all sorts of strange things about what you’re allowed to RP. It doesn’t mean that the option didn’t make the change canon, or that a statue was required to confirm it.
I don’t recall it being 2,000 years ago as well - I thought it was more recent.
@ Faelia. You’re trying to open me to take your interpretation, and I’m not going to do so. The simplest reading of the text is that she joined the Silver Hand and is now following the light - the light being understood the way we understand it in game - the human religion.
Regarding your second point - Night Elf culture and independence has absolutely been eroded, and commenters have had to counter Blizzard’s attempts to do so for years. We had to push back on the High King to get him clarified as a SAC (even though they went through with Anduin anyway). They tried to make the Night Elves diurnal in a tweet, and Night Elves were stuck in Stormwind tabards until Legion/BFA. But now they’re refugees in Stormwind.
Which, by the way, was to serve a human story. The desire to give human characters motivation to fight the Horde, to take back Lordaeron, and to then go to Kul’tiras was central to why Teldrassil burned. It’s the single most identifiable reason for it, and it represented a near-final triumph of human domination of the Alliance. Our investment was sacrificed and destroyed so that Anduin and Jaina could be presented as heroes.
So yes, I am afraid that I am going to have to insist that Night Elf themes and culture are being bulldozed for the humans. I’ve seen it go on for about a decade in an escalating fashion.
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So no judge or jury? Just immediate execution?
Er, no. The Shen’dralar being in seclusion had nothing to do with the Malfurion’s edict. I doubt the even knew the Kaldorei survived.
Even if they did, they had no reason to fear the Edict because it didn’t apply to them.
THAT’S LITERALLY THE LORE. Really, you never even read the book?
No because society changes. It learns and it grows.
Irrelevant to the topic.
So you’re admitting everything you’ve been arguing is false. Good to hear.
It does, because this is a point to this day. Even the inverse, where canonical classes aren’t seen in-game (e.g. Zandalari Warlocks, which were actually advertized).
It was a tremendous societal change when night elf men were allowed to become priests and the women druids. For thousands of years previously, the two roles had been exclusive to the other gender. This pair of statues commemorates those momentous and tumultuous events.
You’re right in that date isn’t specified, but “thousands of years prior” and the fact this is an archaeology solve where you are digging up artifacts in areas no longer Night Elf occupied does require it being a few thousand years ago.
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I don’t think it being an archaeology solve necessarily means that the artifact is thousands of years old. I’ve always understood it to just be something that reinforces the gender changes.
And that’s your interpretation and I just don’t see it.
I still not getting were you are getting this from. I mean, are you living in an alternate reality? Night Elves in Stormwind tabards? Really? Night Elves haven’t worn a Stormwind Tabard since Wrath, and even then it wasn’t actually a Stormwind Tabard. It was the Alliance Tabard.
The first Male Priest and Female Druid was “Some time ago” but not specifically 2000 years. Despite that, gender roles remained pretty rigid, and only started to loosen after the 3rd War. But even then, it is merely the loosening of systemic restrictions. It is still generally believe than only women can be effective Priests among the Kaldorei people.
With that being said, I am just talking about the lore. I have no intention to tell anyone what they can or cannot RP.
What makes you think that Kaldoei society has due process?
Shen’dralar literally means “Those who remain hidden” lol
Because they practiced the Arcane… Which means they would be executed.
Cite your source then.
There are still cultural morays and folkways. And even still, in an MMO, it is important that races maintain the staples of their identity. Otherwise, you are doing a disservice to those who chose to play them.
It is relevant, because my entire point was that these cultural staples are important to the people who chose to play these races. When you wash those staples away, then the racial identity is changed.
You are the one who started this. The burden of proof is on you.
The Alliance tabard IS a Stormwind tabard - and when you say that it was Wrath, that isn’t true. We saw it Cata, we saw it in WoD, and we saw it in MOP. Accusing me of living in an alternate reality and bringing up easily dismissible falsehoods is particularly ironic.
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Malfurion (or any Night Elf) not immediately executing Dath’Remar and his followers.
They predated even the Sundering. How the hell can you infer they’re hiding from the Kaldorei?
Many night elves were wary of their guests as they dredged up painful memories from the past. The Highborne in particular were treated with suspicion and even open hostility.
Chronicles 3.
Elegy
Vestia Moonspear losing her friends over learning from the Shen’dralar.
Plenty of examples. Now your turn.
And they change. Players should understand that or they’re just being unreasonable.
No, it’s irrelevant being it’s something that hasn’t really changed that much, so you’re crowing about nothing.
No, I really wasn’t. You responding to my comment and going off about your headcanon is what started it.
WoW… There’s just no reasoning with you if you don’t know that humans wear a different tabard from other Alliance Races.
The only time other Races wear the Alliance Tabard, is when it is literally because it is a combined Alliance offensive, not carried out by individual nations. Of course they wear the Tabard of the Organization they’re representing.
In BfA, each race wore their OWN nation’s Tabard when they were fighting for their respective nations.
In BFA there were changes that I appreciated - such as the Night Elves actually getting some of that independence back, but I wasn’t talking about BFA. I was talking about prior expansions whose trend continued into legion. That was a clever dodge, but I’m not going to let it slide.
Nor am I going to let you drop that the combined Alliance tabard IS the Stormwind tabard, and further indication of this problem of human domination of the Alliance. One that yes, is a problem, and has been used over the years to bulldoze Night Elven themes and independence, most recently with the narrative desire to motivate human hero characters like Jaina and Anduin by taking Teldrassil away in a “shoved in the refrigerator” moment.
This is an issue, we are not ignoring this or pretending that it isn’t there.
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The choice was execution or banishment.
This was after Dath’Remar refused to adhere to the ban on magic. Banishing Dath’Remar was an act of mercy, an offer that would not come again for thousands of years to follow.
The Shen’dralar did not predate the sundering. It is made up of members who refused to adhere to the ban on magic. Most of whom were old Arcanist who settled Eldre’Thalas.
“In the ensuing years, the Shen’dralar continued to be isolated from the rest of night elf society, and so their subsequent dangerous actions went unnoticed by their distant kindred.” - Warcraft Encylopedia
And yet, in the course of a few years, the Kaldorei completely abandoned a central cultural mores. 180ing away from executing arcane users, to open acceptance.
Your citation doesn’t prove your claim either. You claim that the Burning of Teldrassil was the even that changed public opinion. This is not the case. We only see that magic is seen as less taboo in BfA was it was seen in Cata…
Try again.
Mores and Folkways -might- change over the span of several generations, not merely a few years. Much less when those Mores and Folkways defined the culture for the last 10,000 years.
Except it has.
Yes, you literally did.
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What “dodge”? I was LITERALLY addressing your point that Night Elves wore Stormwind Tabards. Which was false. Now you’re walking that back.
You claimed they wore them in Cata. That was false.
You claimed they wore them in MoP. That was false. Arguably, the worst to can claim is they wore a Lion Crest on their shield. And only Draenei. Otherwise, the few Night Elves who wore a tabard, wore the Darnassus Tabard or the Tushui Tabard.
You Claimed they wore them in WoD. This too was false. Very Few NPCs wore tabards and only Humans wore Stormwind’s Tabard.
The Only time the Night Elves wore a Lion crest on their Tabard was in Wrath, and it was the Valiance Expedition Tabard. Because Night Elves literally JOINED the Valiance Expedition for this purpose.
No, you’re just imaging something that isn’t there.
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You claimed they wore them in Cata. That was false.
I was thinking of the Vashj’ir NPCs - on second look - they do not wear tabards - so this is fair.
You claimed they wore them in MoP. That was false. Arguably, the worst to can claim is they wore a Lion Crest on their shield. And only Draenei. Otherwise, the few Night Elves who wore a tabard, wore the Darnassus Tabard or the Tushui Tabard.
The Tushui tabard is a stylized Stormwind Tabard.
You Claimed they wore them in WoD. This too was false. Very Few NPCs wore tabards and only Humans wore Stormwind’s Tabard.
Wrong
http^s://www.wowhead.com/npc=80990/alliance-soldier
As for your last point - you’re dropping the vast majority of my points. The flow is a mess. You simply saying that human homogenization isn’t a problem doesn’t make you right on this.