White Black Panther - outrageous. The painted face of twenty years ago is outrageous. Calling a race a color is outrageous. E. Here is my roundup of news over the years. Short. ABOUT! They hang photos of killed African Americans - they hang photos of those killed by African Americans. I have not tested this news.
Are Indians called red?
Does the Bosmer (?) Seem to be using their kind as transport? Or is it the Khajiit?
We have the right to everything, however, just like you, condemn everything that is possible, since everyone has the right, and I have not noticed the consequences so far.
It was supposed to be a stupid song about rights and all.
You have the right to be angry, he has the right to anger, contact each other … I couldn’t go on raving.
I’m by no means an expert - but my understanding is that it’s the coding that matters, and the reduction of ethnic groups to mere stereotypes.
How about me painting myself gray to Cosplay a Zandalari/Bwonsamdi?
You’ll probably get different answers from different people.
I live in southwestern US. I have few friends who are white, mostly Hispanic and a few American indigenous. Our humor is rather racially charged.
I think I am a bit more careful with it, because I am white and a pagan, and there are negative connotations associated with that. Yet, I just bought a new truck, and I’ll swing by to pick up my friend Jonny (Who was born in Mexico), and he’ll say something like “I can get so many family members over the border with this” referring to my truck.
-I- would never make that joke, honestly. Much less with people I don’t know. You know, it is an offensive joke, and given my race and faith, I need to be extra careful I think.
It would seem there are several schools of thought. It is not always as obvious as you might think. You’ll have people who think that sort of joke should never be made ever, regardless of your own ethnicity. You’ll have people who might think that sort of humor is funny, and as long as there is no real hate behind it, it’s okay.
You probably have a few people of color who thought 2010 Shane Dawson was funny, even though I always found his Shaynaynay character problematic for obvious reasons.
I think when it comes down to it, you need to gauge people on an individual level. People are not going to find the same things offensive. Some people are more laid back than others.
Maybe my friend Jonny is racist for making that joke. Should I tell him he can’t make that joke? As a person of European decent, can I say to a Mexican man “You can’t say that” when it is a joke about him, his family and his people?
I am sure some people say yes. Others say no. I guess that is really what the race debate is in the US right now. I am not really an expert, these are just the observations I have made.
1 Like
This is one of the great things about being military. Rules like what is and isn’t considered discrimination are all spelled out. I don’t have to sit back and determine if something is “racist”, I merely have to determine if it is or is not against regulation and then act accordingly.
It gets even more complex when you consider how things change from generation to generation. I have co-workers who would probably get accused of cultural appropriation for celebrating their heritage.
1 Like
Hm… interesting I do not find any of it racist.
Blackface used to be used as a way to mock and belittle people in real life.
Now its being used by a nerd to depict a fantasy race that worships some spider god with an edgy personality.
Its apple to oranges.
You can make anything racist if you try hard enough. Its the intention that counts imo, I don’t think the cosplay or depictions of Drow or Orcs furthers societal injustices and inequalities of any RL minority.
In fact it seems like a distraction from real issues. But thats my 2 cents any way on this issue.
Modern wokeness I think is hella toxic. Don’t get me wrong, racism is a horrible and ugly thing. But when so much is steeped in social justice and cancel culture, you just have mob rule that is subject to ignorance.
For example, Dutch “Black Pete” is a cultural tradition around Christmas time. If you search it, you will see something that will look like blatant, racist blackface. It looks like a caricature of a stereotypical black person, as one might expect from racist forms of “comedy” of the past.
It’s not that, however. It dates back to the dark ages. When people of color were seen rarely, if ever, in that region of Europe. Black Pete has many origins, said to be the personifications of Odin’s Ravens, hence being black. Or members of Odin’s Wild Hunt. Or the more practical and widely accepted, being the Helpers of Saint Nicholas. Them dropping through chimney’s makes their face black.
It’s not a depiction of any race of ethnicity. But because it looks offensive, it has suffered a great deal of controversy going into the 21st century.
I thought this thread was dead. Why is this thread not dead?
Christ, people, go home.
I mean, on the “Helpers of St. Nicholas” thing - weren’t they slaves before the Dutch hurriedly revised it to be more politically correct? This might not be the best example of what you’re going for.
1 Like
You’re the warlock - you telling me you didn’t go and necro this thread? 
I haven’t heard that. If that is true, then yeah, not a great example. My understanding was that they were the Christianization of The Wild Hunt. But it is possible there is more context that I am missing.
Often the subject of winter poems and tales, the Companions travel with Saint Nicholas carrying with them a rod (sometimes a stick and in modern times often a broom) and a sack. They are sometimes dressed in black rags, bearing a black face and unruly black hair. In many contemporary portrayals the companions look like dark, sinister, or rustic versions of Nicholas himself, with a similar costume but with a darker color scheme
The corresponding figure in the Netherlands and Flanders is called Zwarte Piet or Black Pete , and in Swiss folklore Schmutzli , (schmutz meaning dirt).[1] In the Czech Republic, Saint Nicholas or svatý Mikuláš is accompanied by the čert (Devil) and anděl (Angel). In France, Saint Nicholas’ companion is called “Rubbels” in German-speaking Lorraine and Hanstrapp (in Alsace, East of France)[2] and the Père Fouettard (Wallonia, Northern and Eastern France).
Nothing about slavery. Just thought I throw that out there.
I recommend reflecting on that experience with your POC friend’s sardonic and politically incorrect joke in a different way, and because, IMO, your personal understanding of ontological positionality and sociological relationship to antiBlackness and White Supremacy as a global system of neo-colonial power (i.e. ‘the afterlife of chattel slavery and settler-colonialism’) comes off particularly lacking in critical race theory, again, in my opinion, therefore anecdotally invoking hypothetical POC who exhibit internalized Whiteness and NBPOC antiBlackness doesn’t come across as being thoughtful and progressive to some of us.
I disagree with your assertion that you need to gauge people and racism on an individual level. Because racism is not merely about “real”(?) hate or personal intentions. Racism should not be conflated with personal bigotry towards other people for their identities. It also encompasses interpersonal, micro, institutional, mezzo, systemic, macro levels of dialetics and theoretical models and approaches to understanding modern world-building through race, a socially constructed concept in the structures of modernity that intersects with class, gender, sexuality, war, and body politics.
I do, however, agree that you should not tell Jonny “not to say that” as a white person. It is not, however, out-of-bounds for you to approach your friend in good faith to better understand his perspective and lived experience.
There is nuanced discourse over materialist objectivity versus postmodern relativism when it comes to subjectivity and informed knowledge. But this whole ‘different answers from different people’ through this neoliberal logic of anecdotal, case by case, is not a good thing as it pertains to your demonstrated arguments and behavior on here. An extraordinary depth of intellectual labor is gated behind the academic industrial complex (academia is far from perfect and operates in an oppressive function in our social systems) and the political education we need as the masses is controlled and gate-kept by the status-quo who co-opt the work in mainstream publications in ways palatable and conditioned by their own agendas.
None of us are experts in “the race debate”, and this debate is happening on different levels depending on your class and educational mobility in the matrix of oppression that is the violent world we live in today. That is also a problem. This whole thing of “racist” = “bad person” is also a limited, shallow understanding of race as we are all socially conditioned to embody and uphold such social constructs in specific and material ways to uphold macro-systems with built-in ideologies. That’s why this is whole aggrieved white pearl-clutching over being called a racist is so indicative of the problems around mainstream race discourse and widespread need for continued political education. For example, I am a nonBlack person socialized to benefit from and uphold antiBlackness as an ideological phenomenon (which is not the same White Supremacy or antiBlack racism for that matter) that is discussed in Black Studies today, especially in the way Afro-pessimism and Black feminism is causing seismic shifts in the Humanities and Social Science disciplines right now. Therefore, I can and will be antiBlack despite my best intentions and will continue to learn and unlearn, motivated by my political, moral, and ethical values and principles. It’s less about being a racist person and more about how I can hold myself to accountability, to transform, to heal, to show up in a world that does something about human suffering.
(Baal, I know I’m being a hypocrite right now with what I said to you earlier but this conversation, and the logics and arguments behind it, seems to be a common occurrence so I wanted to contribute my 2 cents.)
Edit: Sorry for the poor writing mistakes and grammatical errors. 
2 Likes
Whew child. Where do I even start with these alt-right buzzwords and this very ironic use of the word ‘ignorance’.
3 Likes
Sometimes I think some people operate on a different level of reality where they see and consider things that I don’t.
When I see Dark Elves I don’t think black people… or Orcs for that matter.
When I see Tauren I don’t see a bastardization of Native American culture and a racist depiction of Native Americans as literal monstrous beasts.
I see these things as something fun that may or may not use some elements of our real life into fun stories.
There are racist authors and story tellers out there like HP Lovecraft but some others I think some people are making it worse than it is for their own selfish validation among their peers.
1 Like
I mean, you have an interesting perspective, but I have to say, I take issue with your word choice. I don’t think it is any surprise that we disagree. Referring to my friend’s sense of humor as “internalized whiteness” is a pretty disgusting take, imo.
It is clear you are steeped in this sort of ideology. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are also operating on a foundation of set premises that I simply do not accept. So I am struggling to find anything that would be constructive here.
Your concepts of “Whiteness” “Afro-pessimism” “Antiblack” I see as, something that may or may not have merit. Yet, you tendency to associate them with a monolithic racial identity is really the core of what racism is, in my view.
I don’t want to say you are a bad person. Clearly you are engaging me in a conversation with good intentions. An attempt to educate and learn, and certainly you have something to say that is of value.
I mean, frankly. Neoliberal and Free Market Capitalist is a pretty accurate descriptor of my political views. I get the feelings you don’t see the world the same way.
1 Like
For me, it’s not about selfish validation. It’s about the harm and violence and trauma that comes with living in a racist world of structural inequalities and systemic power dependent on ontological, ideological, and material violence.
1 Like
If you reread my post, I used those words specifically in relation to “hypothetical POC” that you mentioned about Shane Dawson’s blackface. I thought it was clear I was speaking on two different things as the word ‘hypothetical’ refers to the indirect, non-specific people of color you mentioned.
And no, I disagree on what you think might be a tendency of mine to view those words and associate with a ‘monolithic racial identiy’ especially when it comes to mestizaje, multiracialism, asssimilation and acculturation into whiteness as a fluid, not fixed, social construct.
Yes, I agree. We definitely view the world and embody our beliefs in diametrically opposed ways. You don’t have to respond with anything constructive. I, in no way, want to demand responses from you. I just wanted to contribute my perspective on the topic.
1 Like