I mean, either way. “Internalized Whiteness” I think, is a disgusting label. Like, the very idea that a POC finds humor is something offensive means is somehow “whiteness”. That is, essentially, viewing racial identity as a monolith, to the point where being “white” just becomes synonymous with racial marginalization.
“Whiteness” “White Privilege” even “AntiBlack” in the context in which it is being used, just seems like a gross, racist attempt to dehumanize white people, or anyone, white or not, of different opinion. Classifying them as white even if they aren’t.
Again, I don’t want to say you are a bad person. You have been more cordial than many other people in this thread. Even me, admittedly. That is just, in my view, really problematic.
Okay, I will just respond and say internalized Whiteness is not “disgusting”, it’s a sociological reality for people of color, including myself. We internalize whiteness as an ideology and construct in which we are pressured to assimilate into a system of power.
I don’t have the capacity or even the willingness to debate at length on what you consider “racist” attempts at dehumanizing white people, or even this conversation on who passes as white through a materialist lens versus how people identify.
Actually, what you consider problematic has decades, arguably centuries, of principled exegesis and intellectual labor behind them from around the world. There are literally scores of bibliographies and literature you can dive into as an epistemic and dialetical approach to what you consider problematic.
I’m well aware that Orcs or Drow are a fictional race. And I’m wondering if you’re being deliberately obtuse, trying to misrepresent what I said about material violence and racism in red-herring fashion to attribute my post with a false conclusion that I never stated.
It’s not, but I am not going to convince you. Again, it is disgusting for the reasons I have already listed. You don’t have to agree with me, it just seems obvious. I shouldn’t need to explain making “whiteness” synonymous marginalization is problematic.
But you do you, I guess. I refuse to make sweeping assumptions about individuals on the basis of skin color.
Not really a red-hearing when D&D has vowed to change the Drow and Orcs because of their apparent racist depictions.
There is also that D&D episode from community that was pulled when Chang was in Blackface to depict a drow.
You claimed these are perpetuating material and structural violence and when I ask for an explanation you just give up and quit.
Either its racist and must be eliminated or it isn’t.
Why isn’t the Zandalari you play as considered racist when it is clearly appropriating culture from south American native cultures?
How far does this go? At what point do these creative works stop being racist? Is there a test?
I definitely think you’re asking the right questions, and if we’re being truly sincere about confronting racism—all of us—we should at least start with the premise that there are no wrong questions to ask, so long as there’s a genuine desire to learn behind that inquiry.
I just find the notion of hating someone based on their skin color, religion, etc to be…well really outdated. And the fact it’s still a thing is sad beyond words. But that’s me.
I can wonder about people’s intentions and framing of my ideas and words, especially if it bothers me for whatever reason. It’s hard to read tone or intent on here. And people do ask questions in ways that are deliberately inflammatory, manipulative and toxic on this Story forum, so bear with me if I’m a little guarded. I have every right to express that and engage with people and conversations on here at my pace and leisure. No one is entitled to a specific kind of response from me and I wasn’t being rude or disrespectful.
I have a personal tasks to tend to so maybe I will come back and contribute to the discussion if I choose to. Enjoy your day, Velthyras.
When we are talking about humans in RL? Of course.
But what about a fantasy setting with different species all together?
Comparing humans to other animal species then we get a whole variety. Or even comparing other animals, Horses we could domesticate but Zebras? Nope. Their species is just born a way to be different and its not possible to domesticate a Zebra because if you try to ride it it will try to kill you.
In a fantasy setting where there is a variety of intelligent races and magic with deep historical resentments it would not make sense to me if there was no racism… or specism among their inhabitants.
But my question is when does all this story building starts to spill into real life? Where people project and internalize these various story building blocks?
Which to be fair, we have seen many times between humans and orcs, humans and dwarves, and humans and elves (wait, is there a recurring pattern here?) with the Alliance of Lordaeron.
We’re even told—and shown—that the night elves at the time of the ancient Kaldorei Empire were highly xenophobic toward the tauren, dwarves, and furbolg, for example.
So this does bring me back to earlier conversations with Baalsamael, who does have a point in, well…“pointing out” (XD) that many in-game races and cultures are directly based off of those in RL: it’s pretty overt and obvious that Gilneans are British, Trolls are Voodoo, and Tauren are Native Americans, for example.
And once you come to the conclusion that it’s not just “one or two references” anymore, but outright inspiration, then the issue does become less of the player projecting and more a question of, “What is the game/developer saying about these cultures?”.
Yeah and I love that because to me it makes these people as fallible as we are.
My problem though is someone sees Night Elves who have dark skin tones living in jungles like savages and somehow this person would then think Blizzard is making a racist stereotype with their story.
Thats what happened with D&D recently and I just don’t understand how people can walk themselves through this mine field to get to that conclusion.
As I’ve pointed out repeatedly in this thread, basing a fictional race on real-world sublatern peoples is not in itself racist.
It becomes racist when you reproduce the real-life racism those peoples who you based the in-game race on for those in-game races, and reduce those in-game peoples to repeats of historical tropes.
Examples:
Noble Savage Trope for Baine, who is a North Amerindigenous Derivative, feathered headdress and all; this is a reproduction of a racist trope in-game
The repeated, almost every expansion killing of Trolls, who are Afro-Caribbean/South Amerindigenous; this is narrative racism, again reproducing a poignant real-world sensitive issue in-game
The depiction of the Alliance looting the coffers of the Zandalari (West African, South African, South Amerindigenous motifs) palace after breaking into the palace due to a previous espionage effort led by SI:7 (based on IRL English MI:6) that led to the killing of the leader; basically just a replica of any number of CIA-led coups in Africa or Latin America.
If some white dude wants to put in the effort and buy weave, lock it, and sew it into their hair and beard to make a super duper perfect Saurfang cosplay, go for it. I will pray for your edges however, because hair is heavy lmao
However, if someone chooses to cosplay as a Troll and then proceeds to replicate “mammy” tropes, that is racist.
Nah if you look at Smallioz post history, or have paid attention to their posts, they repeatedly do troll responses attempting to elucidate some post via irony or sarcasm.
But seriously, it is kind of an important distinction, because the Kaldorei definitely have some pseudo-Celtic moon-and-nature worship stuff going on. So even if their capital city is (or was) literally built in a tree, it’s not like they’re just rolling around in mud like animals (well, maybe the druids are)—that’s a (mostly Nightborne) stereotype.
So in short if you use inspiration from Mayan culture to make something fictional you cannot use that creation to be killed or shown in a negative way because then it would be a racist stereotype?
If I wanted to be sarcastic you would know. Trust me.
It was a hyperbolic example but perhaps I can use Trolls as an example then. Baal thinks they are a racist depiction. But Night Elves are not?
And yeah, this is still something I take a lot of issue with; there’s really just no way to brush this particular—let’s call it what it is—war crime aside without resorting to self-deception.
Especially considering the unmistakably colonial-imperial flavor of Alliance leaders like Anduin, Jaina, and especially the (again, British) Greymane strolling up to King Rastakhan and demanding he surrender shortly before murdering him.
It’s probably the most overt display since Daelin Proudmoore literally built a series of coastal bases all up and down the Kalimdor coast, conquistador-style.
Except, you know, he was directly written as the bad guy.
I mean, sure, but racism isn’t a light, happy thing. It’s a difficult topic that requires a great deal of care to discuss, let alone depict. It might seem like a harmless thing to some people - and to others it’s something that relates to something that has a direct impact on them to this day. Again, I’m not going to act like I’m some sort of expert, but let’s consider WoW for a second.
Christie Golden is on record as being fascinated with the Nuremburg trials, and she attempted to depict them in War Crimes - this being applied to a political faction that checks a lot of the boxes of what German and Japanese fascism was during that time. In BFA this got appreciably worse, with, as one Horde poster put it, Sylvanas motivating Saurfang with the fourteen words. They depicted this, thought that Horde players were going to identify with this, and for a while tried to present it as being morally ambiguous, or grey. They also decided to give this identity to the faction that was intentionally coded in a certain way - and it was done that way to set up a sort of anticolonialist critique - one that I’ve seen applied in defense of the genocide itself in a reply to one of the art pieces from the War of the Thorns that Blizzard shared on Twitter.
The message? Seems to me that Blizzard is trying to say that these people who are coded as historically marginalized groups when left to their own devices are just pining for genocide. They can’t help themselves, and need a white, European-coded saint to save them from themselves.
I feel like this message could have been coming from a southern plantation owner drawing comparisons to the Haitian revolution, or certain members of the Alt Right making documentaries on South Africa. There are some pretty dangerous implications in that.
Consider the fact that Anduin is quite literally a fair-skinned, blonde-haired, blue-eyed priest. Look up the vast majority of British artwork from, say, the 17th-18th centuries and you’ll find his doppelganger in almost anything featuring religion or the angelic. This is the figure who succeeds where every other Horde character fails in getting through to Saurfang, the grizzled old (decidedly non-Anglo-European) war veteran.
The same goes for Calia Menethil apparently being needed to redeem her people with the Light—we can hardly allow them to forge their own path as individualistic outcasts, now can we?
Replicate IRL historical tropes the Nahua and Maya suffered? Bad.
IRL things they suffered:
Welcomed strange dudebros only to be slaughtered by them (thankfully in canon the Horde with the help of Vol’jin fought against the Gurubashi, who was already leading an anti-living sacrifices and anti-cannibalism effort)
Had their language rendered illegal (e.g. if Gurubashi Umbrella Tribes like the Darkspear were forbidden from speaking their language)
Were otherwise slaughtered by the local government in postcolonial Mexico and certain parts of Central America
I literally said the Trolls are not racist. The way Blizzard has handled their story is racist. Stop misrepresenting my ideas when they’re clear as day.
And yet they do.
Weird how Golden consistently writes the Horde as the reductio ad Goodwin apex villain of the real-life Western mentality
Correct. And I am metaphysically exhausted. Guess we don’t need to ask how Blizzard writers feel about IRL Indigenous land-return movements, or the 1619 Project stuff, or etc.
Or even if communal identity must be established, they’re going with Charles V becoming Holy Roman Emperor randomly and all of the Spanish Royal Audiences going like “WHOMST???” instead of some Irish Republican Fenianesque story.
