Wanting to be hated

The reason I say it wasn’t communicated in the meta sense is because the Alliance’s perception of the orcs in WCI and WCII is really not too much different than what’s presented to the viewer.

So when the Alliance is shown to not kill them all and instead put them into camps, they’re coming at it with much the same information we the view are. From both their point of view, and ours, based on how orcs had been shown- they are dealing with creatures that are practically inhuman.

The revelation to the Alliance that orcs are actually people coincides more or less with that of the audience. While/after they’ve grappled with the decision and decided to go into camps.

So basically, they went with a race and thoroughly demonized them (literally) to the point of inhumanity and then, after having the in-universe characters respond inhumanely, pull a “But see? They were people all along!” stick.

That’s a bad way to illustrate the flaws of racism and bigotry.

Better examples of Alliance racism would be their treatment of Dwarves and Elves in the earlier games. Because we, the audience, already understand that Dwarves/Elves are actual people. Therefore, the Alliance’s treatment of them is recognized- not as a logical conclusion based on their experiences with them- but as the flawed discrimnation it actually is. Or their treatment of newly introduced races, like the Tauren, who are introduced from the outset as characters who don’t have a history of being portrayed as uneasonably hostile to the Alliance, but get attacked by them anyway. And shown to the audience to be “gentle giants” to boot.

For the Alliance’s bigotry to properly work as a flaw, the people it’s directed against first have to be established to the audience as actual people. Not caricatures. Which isn’t so much how orcs in WCI and WCII were handled.

A story in which you portray a people as being thoroughly terrible and fail to humanize them in the eyes of the audience, only to turn around and say, “Now don’t anyone IC/OOC be bigoted against them!” ultimately rings hollow.

That’s why showing the orcs as people at around the same time you establish the camps is a bad idea. The orcs haven’t had a chance to be established as actual people to the audience yet. You just spent WCI and WCII making them out to be jerks deserving of genocide, lest they do even worse to everyone on Azeroth. But now we’re supposed to feel for them?

Instances of Alliance racism against races of the Horde works much better after(or during the latter parts of) WCIII, after they do a better job establishing the Horde races as no longer being a bunch of cartoony demonic conquerors. After the narrative has shown us that they actually have families and friends and culture and civilians. When the game has humanized them to the audience every bit as much as elves and dwarves and other races we know to also be “human”. That’s how you can communicate that bigotry against them is a vice.

And that’s why I think that writing decision: to have the Alliance grapple with putting orcs into camps vs genocide at the end of WCII, and framing the decision to go with camps as the more humane one- was a bad decision.

I agree that the overall WoW narrative pre-Cataclysm is better than what we’ve had since, but not every single writing decision was a hit out of the park. There were flaws there too.

And some of the things that bugged me in pre-Cata WoW still exist in post-Cata WoW are still in the game. Just because there’s different writing teams, it doesn’t mean they can’t make some of the same mistakes (in addition to their own). They’ve even made several decisions I would have liked to have seen back in Vanilla!

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The issue with this interpretation is that half of those negative descriptions of the Horde races come from Horde race intros. So unless Trolls consider themselves “vicious”, “cruel”, and consider their own religion “dark mysticism”, then no. It’s not a biased from the point of view of the race talking about itself.

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Ask everyone who played Alliance in the beginning of WoW. The entire reason the Forsaken joined the Horde is because of the Alliance’s early racism, otherwise they were happy to rejoin their families.

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Really, it’s the hook noses and New York/Jersey accents that do it. Both of which were later additions to the race’s design. Original WoW Goblins had snub noses and unaccented American accents. WCIII introduced the noses and made them neutral traders, but not really obsessed with gold/banking. Cataclysm is when Goblins really stated laying into the Tri-state references and made them Orgrimmar’s bankers- along with dialog pointing out how unscrupulous they are.

But even Gallywix is more a reference to early 20th century fat cats. And he has more of a snub nose. Overall, I agree that Goblins are really more an example of Blizzard poking fun at other Americans than anything else.

But including what even casual observers would note as anti-Semitic caricature elements is a clear case of lots of people dropping the ball and not paying much attention. Which is a pretty good example of why it’s a good idea to put more thought into your work and be willing to examine/criticize it.

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I fail to see how this is problematic when Night Elves aren’t coded as Europeans. Stop painting the entire Alliance in the same color as the boring Humans.

What is the late 90’s origin/inspiration of Moon Goddess worship and Nature Worship involving a dudebro with a green beard and horns, quickly

The Night Elves are literally inspired by both the Greeks and the Japanese. You can see it just about everything. Especially if you pay attention to things like the old Cata Cooking Dailies in Darnassus or just the general architecture.

I’m sorry you’re incapable of looking at the Alliance seeing nothing but the Euro-Centric Stormwind.

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And what are Greeks?

Where does the Wiccan/Neopagan basis of Night Elves come from?

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The Greeks are Greek. It’s not my problem that your incapable of not blanketing every group of “White people” as the same thing. The Greeks didn’t oppress the Native Americans.

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Someone alert the authorities, Greeks are no longer European according to Local Night Elf Classic Alt.

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Congratz on being semantic. We both know that Greeks aren’t the go to image when people think of European White People. Stop being dense.

Greeks didn’t oppress Native Americans.

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Speaking from personal experience, my family looks pretty damn white for being Greek on one side. :stuck_out_tongue:

OK … the Japanese element is more of artistic flavor in their architecture, but it doesn’t really extend beyond that. You could say the HElves/BElves have Ottoman/Islamic Empire tropes in the architecture and design of Silvermoon, but there really isn’t much association with that RW culture beyond that. NEs are more of a weird hodgepodge of European “Pagan” cultures, along with classical Greek and Celtic.

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And I’m about white as they come thanks to my Slovak blood. The Slovaks didn’t oppress the Native Americans either.

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It really isn’t; it’s actually why Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos was such an amazing story: they went in with the first two games and we think we’re playing Lord of the Rings all over again: orcs are evil, humans are good.

Then we get the supplemental material like Lord of the Clans and Of Blood and Honor, and of course the third game, Reign of Chaos. The narrative shifts; the humans characters in the story still act the way they always have, but suddenly we the audience gain new perspectives from outliers like Taretha and Tirion, and get to see things from Thrall’s point of view, as well. This is basic “different points of view” storytelling.

If you want to truly confront racism in fiction, you have to, well…feature racism. Mark Twain and Harper Lee are famous for having done this; their books Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird still top “Banned Books” list just because people are so easily-offended by the “N Word,” despite the fact that both authors outright condemned racism, and necessarily had to showcase it in order to explain what a dreadful time period that was.

You mean like what we saw with Garithos?
It is worth noting that Alliance racism was primarily directed at the orcs, and less so at the elves and dwarves, precisely because the latter two races were allied with Lordaeron. Garithos’ prejudices were only really allowed to run free because the Alliance lay in ruins by the time of “Curse of the Blood Elves.”

Ok, but this makes absolutely no logical sense in the world of the story—even by the time of the Second War, the humans of Lordaeron have enjoyed decades’ worth of peace/trade/etc. with Khaz Modan and especially Quel’Thalas via the Kirin Tor.

That’s very different from what was literally an alien invasion from another planet.

On another continent entirely, so…

Bigotry being properly displayed in fiction isn’t a “set in stone” rule; there’s no “one way” it can only work.

And even as far back as Tides of Darkness (the novel, not the game), we did still get the varying perspectives of the humans and the orcs; some chapters feature Turalyon and Alleria, others demonstrate the ongoing power struggles between Orgrim Doomhammer and Gul’dan.

So they were presented as actual people/characters, at least as far as they were worth writing about/expanding on, regardless of how moral/immoral they were portrayed.

Only by your standards.

This explanation only works if you use the term “orcs” as a general umbrella term—which is racist, by the way—rather than recognizing the difference between individual orcs like Grom Hellscream vs. Thrall himself.

That’s another reason why Lord of the Clans was so well-written; it was very much a “coming-of-age” story for Thrall, with the implication that “this newest generation will be able to redeem the sins of his ancestors,” which is exactly what happens, both at the end of the novel and throughout Warcraft III.

Which is literally what they did with the Bonus Orc Campaign in The Frozen Throne, “Old Hatreds.”

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A lot of their food is rice based and they practice fermentation methods that trace back to the Japanese. That’s why I specified the Cata Cooking Dailies in Darnassus.

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Nobody think of Greeks when thinking of Europe and White People? The alleged “cradle of Western civilization”, foundation of Western Democracy via Athens, root of pedagogical theory with the Socratic method, birth of Western philosophical tradition?? That Greece?

Sure but modern Wicca did appropriate Native Americans, which is the basis of both Moon Goddess motifs and Green Man motifs that Night Elf religiosity aggressive plagiarized lol

Actually late colonial eastern european immigration did in fact kill a bunch of Natives so you’re wrong there bub

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Socrates was bipoc, change my mind

Nah he was born in Athenas, now Saint Augustine on the other hand was half Imazighen half Greek

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https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MedievalEuropeanFantasy