Wanting to be hated

Lore Story Forum
484

See, this is the thing. It’s just like the how Dungeon and Dragons scare back in the 70s and people came out of the woodwork to condemn it for “poisoning children’s minds.” And all because some kid killed himself because his character died in a Campaign (actually, there were more stories but that’s the one I remember most.)

Point is, some people are mentally unstable and they’ll take something, anything and use it to spread their hate, either for or against it.

But these crazy people are their own responsibility. Or those who have direct responsibility over them, as the case may be. That responsibility is NOT on the creators of the media. Not unless something in their works DIRECTLY instructs people to behave as such. In that case, yes it’s the Creator’s responsibility.

But for these people, if it’s not WoW or DnD, it’ll just be something else that sets them off. If it wasn’t WoW, you’d have Warhammer, or Harry Potter, or My little Pony… Something that these people will find to latch onto and turn it into something awful.

485

I dunno, I feel a bit bad for liking what I like. Because I genuinely do think the whole “monster proving he’s more than what he appears to be” is a compelling concept that I latched onto very strongly (in lieu of having an in-game race to identify with), but it’s one that requires some initial prejudice. At the same time, I’ve admittedly got blinders on when it comes to culture representation in the game and how things like that would be insensitive if not done both well and carefully.

It just sucks for me that the game’s answer to “can you see past my appearance?” ended up being “yes and we were right to hate you.” I suppose any attempt to roll it back to prejudice just attaches the previous expansions’ baggage onto it, poisoning the whole idea.

2 Likes
486

You shouldn’t.

It is; that was literally the whole point of Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos.

How so?

It does suck, and that’s still my main beef with Battle for Azeroth. On both sides—with regard to Sylvanas and the Horde, as well as with the Kaldorei—it was the biggest dumping-out of the original Warcraft lore to date.

1 Like
487

The way I see it, without the initial prejudice, there’s basically nothing to overcome for that particular kind of story. A character doesn’t have to have that journey of changing minds and winning hearts if he’s already accepted out of the gate.

I think it was a big spot of wasted potential with the worgen, too. You basically have a race suffering from magical psychosis trying to compel them into ACTUALLY being the monsters they resemble, along with being a walking disease that can infect others into becoming just like them.

But nobody holds that against them except for Godfrey, who hurls himself off of a cliff. And the whole “proving you’re human” storyline effectively dies with him, because there’s nothing compelling about trying to assert your humanity when nobody’s questioning or ostracizing you about it. And it also robbed the alliance of having a storyline about learning to accept the playable worgen too.

8 Likes
488

Glad we agree Faelia?

And to be clear Sarm while I do find that to be F’ed up I wouldn’t put it in the same camp as an actual hate group using WoW as a recruiting tool. I was there for this. I heard the leaked Discord conversation and it pretty much was the nail in the coffin for my involvement with Classic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/3kxw4b/congressman-lou-correa-shames-blizzard-for-letting-n@zis-run-wild-in-world-of-warcraft

Edit out the @.

Am I suggesting the Alliance is racist or is creating racists? No. Am I suggesting the game doing nothing to suggest massacring the much more non-white coded Horde adjacent races isn’t wholesome and noble isn’t an attractive fantasy to lunatics? Yes. Am I suggesting they should do something to address that? Also yes.

2 Likes
489

Ah, I misunderstood—I thought you meant the prejudice was on the part of your character.

No, you’re 100% correct; there did have to be prejudice for trolls–and especially orcs–to overcome. This was, again, the whole point of Reign of Chaos as well as supplemental material like Lord of the Clans and Of Blood and Honor, all of which was orchestrated beautifully to show that the “monster races” weren’t actually monstrous, something that ultimately comes full-circle with Daelin Proudmoore’s appearance in “Old Hatreds.”

Which is another reason to hate what Battle for Azeroth did; even as an Alliance player (only by racial affiliation) it frankly made me sick to hear people saying, “Daelin Proudmoore was right” (he wasn’t).

Sure, but with the worgen, most of that’s on Greymane’s (incredibly arrogant) decision to go full-blown isolationist, which has historically never worked to the respective nation’s benefit.

I would advise you to read the novel Wolfheart.

490

I don’t believe there ever was a disagreement between us.
I was only continuing the discussion.

491

I remember asking Dardillien about this a while back and I thought that the only thing that was originally keeping the worgen from joining the alliance was due to politics regarding Gilnean isolationism, and not actually due to the fact that they were mentally bent werewolves. It’d be a pleasant surprise if that impression was incorrect, although it’d be a shame that it wasn’t represented in-game.

Although I’m pretty sure if I read the book, I’d just end up saltier all over again that they became an alliance race. I was so bummed out about that. >_>

492

You know, I suspect that if things were different, Horde Players would be complaining that they don’t belong on the Horde because they’re “too Human.”

493

Well the thing is this isn’t 80s satanic panic.

Look I’m not a fragile sort. I’ve done comedy and construction in Chicago. If you’re delicate you either adapt or quit in those lines of work.

Suffice to say a clearly racist meme directed at Africans with a Darkspear in their place to dodge social media censors doesn’t really bother me. Ditto for antisemitism with a Goblin. Should it? Probably. But I found 4chan when I was 9 and nobody knew better - I’m too far gone.

What does alarm me, deeply, owing to my own family history that involved fleeing a continent, is when ish like that is a sneer hiding a very real, very venomous ideology.

1 Like
494

Where ever on earth you people get these farfetched impressions of “racist memes” is absolutely confounding.

I mean, you REALLY have to look very hard and sideways to see Goblins as antisemitic.

495

On second thought, nobody has any reason to give a toss what I think about this topic. I’m just being dumb and weird again. Nevermind.

496

Frankly I’d agree they only bare a superficial resemblance to antisemitic caricature. They’re cutthroat capitalists with a love of gas guzzling vehicles, have an abundance of burgers, pornography, guns and are the only race who’ve been seen as obese.

Hell their version of American Football is called Footbomb because there’s explosions. They out Murica’d Murica.

But here’s the thing. Believe it or not, racists actually zero in on superficial things.

2 Likes
497

Yeah but Racists will also see these traits ANYWHERE and in EVERYTHING.
They see what they want to see and superimpose their stereotypes on everything just to see what fits. They look for it so of course they’ll see it.

Doesn’t mean they’re really there.

Even people who try to accuse others of racism, can’t help but to impose their own subconscious racist stereotypes in order to see them.
Like how Dragons in classic Fantasy were accused of being antisemitic charactures… because “they horded gold.”

But to reach this conclusion, one must hold this Stereotype yourself to see it in something else.
Then NOTHING in media or art or Literature can EVER be free of Stereotypes because such people will always find it there.
You can NEVER portray a Greedy miser character without someone coming along as accusing you of antisemitism.

1 Like
498

If they’re hook nosed scheming inhuman bankers than yeah people are probably going to point out this thing wouldn’t look out of place in a propaganda street poster from the '36 Summer Olympics.

Whereas a oppressed social group don’t really get depicted as something as regal and mighty as a dragon. Countries still put them on flags.

They’re not being used in antisemitic context for no reason. I don’t see Belves or Dwarves being used in their place for that sort of thing.

5 Likes
499

TL;DR: being an antagonist is fine IMO. Contradicting the story and going out of character - is not.

Well, to be honest, I do not mind being a “villain” if it’s a reasonable approach and grows from something. Especially if it’s the kind of “antagonist” that has a point and reasons.

What I do not like is when things happen suddenly, without foreshadowing, and with a poor explanation that barely fit or contradict the narrative. Which is why I answered to the “the only way”.

Not only because the story has seeds for like half a dozen reasons for the alliance to be way more self-centered and “pushy” without even trying to dig deep through the story, but also because the most recent BfA arc instead of telling the story of “Jaina sees a point in Daelin’s actions” to complete rejection with no 2nd thought.

Pair it with Anduin condemning Daelin later in the story, and we arrive to the point where the suggestion to be racists is tied to the faction that an expansion before explicitly bashed that choice. And that is what I mean by “not a good way”, aka ignoring the story and using things as plot device without paying attention to what was going on before.

I do not think that taking someone “out of character” is a way to tell interesting story. So, we would need to get rid of Jaina, Anduin, those who supported their ideas. And then it might be a option to excercise the prejudices of the alliance.

Which even then would be hard given how the horde validated worst stereotypes (in the story), e.g. the forsaken showed themselves as the scourge cosplayers. And with characters like Velen, (what a surprise) Turalyon and others who can be open minded when looking at the situation (orcs for draenei, Turalyon and the forsaken at the Gathering).

It would require a long build up to make a proper transition. And significant character roster changes. Assuming the idea is to have actually a decent story, and not “and now you’re a villain even though 10 minutes ago you were promoting things going against the suggested motives”.

gl hf

2 Likes
500

I gotta be honest, I don’t think Alliance ben racist, at least not the way that guy wants to. I can understand wanting the Alliance to do some bad things. Now that we got Lightforged Draenei, Void Elves and Dark Iron into the fold alongside the Night Elves and Worgen’s even deeper hatred for the Horde it’s the perfect opportunity to show the Alliance using it’s full might and extremism without the peace advocating High King on control of the Alliance army troops.

But racism? The Alliance has a bunch of different races, their hatred for the Horde mostly comes from the fact that the Horde has brought chaos to the Eastern Kingdoms for years now. First War, Second War, Thrall breaking everyone out during the Third War, countless conflicts during Vanilla, Wrath, Cata, especially MoP and BFA… Of course the Alliance will hate the Horde as much as the Horde hate the Alliance, but I don’t think they can be racist without unnaturally pushing that narrative for the sake of it.

501

That has much more to do with how the Horde was portrayed in wc1 and wc2. Because make no mistake, the Horde was simply evil during this time, and it was very difficult for the Alliance to look bad in comparrison, or for their actions not to be justified. They could have written them differently, of course, but then you’d basically change the entire story, from the ground up.

You do realize that it is basically impossible to villain bat the Alliance after bfa, right? Because at this point, it’s completely understandable for the Alliance to feel nothing but hatred towards the Horde, and it’s member races. You wouldn’t be able to paint that as unreasonable no matter how hard you tried, because no one would buy it. The villain batting you want can’t happen, because of what has happened. You wouldn’t say that people who hated the SS were racist towards germans, right?

1 Like
502

What a hateful, self indulgent stance to take, wanting a playable faction to be characterized and motivated by something as awful as racism, given it’s impact on the real world.

That’s a terrible idea. Utterly repugnant. Why would any serious person want to pay money in order to play AS that? I certainly would not.

2 Likes
503

That’s why the rest of the sentence you quoted I said:

Being a villain could be fine if that is what we signed on for but it’s not. I wouldn’t have invested nearly 14 years into the Horde’s story if it was “Band of monstrous races wreak havoc on the world of the innocent again and again then timidly seal peace for survival once defeated” but that’s what we’ve turned into.

I’m not sure if the rest of your post was directed at me since you replied to me or if you were just sharing your opinion on why it doesn’t make sense for the Alliance to be racist anymore, because if you read what I posted early in the thread you’ll see my opinion.

2 Likes