Ideally yes, but as it is now with Aeonara Dawnshade, the fact is simple, they are using Light based abilities. That is a choice by the devs; we can theorize that if they had the time or inclination, they would have ostensibly developed new visuals to actually show this in more depth. But as we lack that, we can theorize it is meant to represent Twilight as a magic type (Light+Void), or just that even scholars of the Void can channel light due to conviction in their cause: It has been proved by the lore time and time again that light wielding ultimately requires conviction and will rather than “pureness”. We’ve seen it with the Scarlet Crusades, its undead and the Blood Elves.
As I said, is not the name of the spell, but the damage type; most “Twilight” spells use “Shadow” damage, this one uses “Twilight” as its own thing. These multi school spells have a gameplay effect, but also reflect the lore of their origin (Druid stellar magic is often Astral (Nature+Arcane), besides the Radiant example from before)
Sadly the question is referring to is no longer available so not sure if I can have an informed opinion without the context. (I.E. is it referring to Twilight magic as you go by it, the name it, or the multi class magic school.)
I think the existence of Sunwalkers, Prelates and Dark Iron Paladins already firmly establish that the idea of Paladin has surpases its initial inception in the Lore. The point is perusing what the limits are going to be at the end.
Denouncing it as a “canonical inconsistency” does reveal bias tho. Cause the inconsistency can be resolved eminently either way, so choosing either choice is, well, biased. I’m 100% admitting I am biased in favor of VE/Undead paladins, otherwise why would I care about the issue?
Yet the facts remain, Void Elves Discipline priests exists, we have Voidlight Everdawn which explicitly states it as her path. So why is the one instance of Void/Light being anathemic to each other be the guideline, when the nature of the void and light relationship has existed since the beginning, and is literally the theme of a playable spec since WoW’s inception?
How natural a cycle is depends of outside perspective. This answer has always bothered me because it’s not a logical or rational explanation, but an emotional one. Does it answer if Naaru are bound to be voided eventually, even if it takes eons? Is it only exceedingly rare from our mortal perspective? Cause we do know about like 4 naaru that have gone through it, so how rare is actually at this point?
Rethoric aside, the cycle exists, and not just in Naaru, but in the crystal that was made to use the Ashbringer, and now in the Beledar. There IS a cycle between Ligth and Void, that is undeniable. The question is if it could be harnessed.
TBH, Warcraft has never been the pinnacle of writing excellence, so let’s not even go there, heh.
Regardless of that, WoW already told us that wielding Light requires conviction and will rather than “purity of thought.” At the end of the day, the Blood Elves proved that light is just another cosmic force that can be bend to the wielder’s will (which was obviously heresy for the Church of the Holy Light) but nonetheless true.
Sure, it does also tells us that “forcing” the Light was unpleasant, painful, cold. It still has some sort of sentience, which is an interesting fold.
Personally, I just see so much more potential on the idea of delving into the cycle of light and void and how it could be manipulated, but of course it might be something that is never touched upon. Bummer, but c’est la vie.
Which brings us back to the Blood Knights. That’s the thing, WoW paladins just… aren’t like DnD or other fantasies paladins, they do not need to be morally good. Blood Knights were self-righteous but they knew that what they were doing was wrong, they even defied the Church of the Holy Light out of spite, and their power did not wane because they bent it to their will. The morality is not a requirement.
Neither did for Turalyon when he was torturing people in Shadows Rising.
You clearly put a moral axis to light and void, which I really can’t agree there’s a moral absolute between light and void, that IS the party like Blizzard has been pushing for the last few expansions whether anyone disagrees with it or not. WoW is no longer a “good v/s evil” narrative, hasn’t been for a long time. I don’t think moral absolutism fits with how the lore has been developing.
Yet even if you put a moral argument to it, what is more altruistic than someone willing to sacrifice their own sanity to protect their world?
Honestly I remain unconvinces despite Copeland’s words. Not saying he is wrong, but the fact that Moonlight has at best, being described as a “type” of Holy Magic, the true nature of the connection remains nebulous; So far they have tied both Human and Draenei connection to the Holy Light through the Naaru, but how Elune and An’she and the Loa channel it from elsewhere is still unknown.
Are they tapping it directly from the cosmic source? what are the rules then? That’s the thing, there’s always a cosmic understanding level at which the “mortal” ideas of what is a Paladin just don’t matter anymore.
Also, this quote by Xal’atath is just too good to not bring up.
I know the naaru consider us horrors to be resisted. We do not share this view. They are merely beloved brethren that lost the true path. They will return to their masters… in time
All I can say is get over it. Nothing needs fixing, and it’s you that wants to prevent cool things from existing. I want people to enjoy, for instance, any and all race/class combos. You seem too bent on “lore” which doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things.
Please… I beg you Blizzard… Uphold…what you’ve already put in the game and don’t worry about people that can’t handle fantasy lore and digital things on a screen.
Paladin of the Forgotten Shadows has a nice ring to it!
Their creed could be similar to that Cult: “Have faith in yourselves as the weak lean on you, the leper call you Lord and the ignorant looks to you for guidance, for with your power you will cause great change in Azeroth, for in death we are all one and the same!”
Undead paladins please! Already got my head canon story going, waiting to be in game lmao!
Aren’t Discipline Priests, who also use the Holy Light if you’re a human among others, also going to have access to the Voidweaver Hero Path? IE they combine Light and Void?
And if Shadow Magic is powered by the void, haven’t Discipline Priests (even Holy Priests) technically been using both for a long time too?
Like, it seems more like the RAW energies explode when they meet. But even in Hellfire Citadel, we see an aberration that’s a fusion of Fel and Void, which are supposed to be similarly cataclysmic yeah?
The ashbringer would not exist if Light + void = Explosion.
To expand on this, we’ve always seen this “issue” when a large amount of light energy, and it’s order forcing ways, react poorly when void is introduced to it.
Small amount of shadow magic touches the intense power of the light? The shadow gets snuffed out, set on fire, burns, or in rare cases explodes.
However whenever an event occurs where a larger pool of void energy ins introduced to light- the void absorbs it, growing less chaotic and becoming more stable.
Ashbringer and Light’s Wrath exist because a void artifact of untold voidal power was infused or struck by spells of light, which the artifact then absorbed and it stabilized.
Now Void Elves, infused with great amounts of shadow magic, can become Paladins. Seems to me the answer is simple.
Void, seer of all possibilities, will allow the Light to coexist with it should it be introduced/infused into it.
However adding void to Light, and it’s rigid vision of one true destiny, causes the Light to violently reject it.
Light to Void, not Void to Light. Acid to water, not water to acid.
Never been how that works. He wasn’t corrupted. He lost faith in himself, and the light only works if you believe in yourself. This has always been the case.
It’s indefensible. There’s just no argument for it existing, no spin. Nothing anyone has said in favor of it is valid or correct. You’re just flat wrong, and that’s all that should be said about it.
But there’s Mag’har and Lightforged warlocks now. Every type of magic can apparently do everything that each other type of magic does now. The lore is 100% dead and nobody should care anymore. They shouldn’t even try to add lore anymore, these short stories and such. There’s just no point in it. There’s no point in it existing because there’s no point investing yourself into it, when it doesn’t respect itself. This shell of a universe is just a coat of paint for gameplay and nothing more, and I’d honestly just prefer it be matte black and not even pretend to be a full colorful picture.
Daw is the baby going to cry if his preconceived notions are shattered? Daww did he scream when Orcs could become priests? Was his whole reality torn apart when a undead was using the light in naxxx?
Awww poor VULPERA thinks the lore he made up in his head is ruined… Better give him his nap.
I have no reason to take this kind of hyperbole seriously. It’s never been stated that Light + void = Explosions. You’re just wrong lmao.
Dude is going into hyper nihilism over a video game. The lore exists. It’s just not following your dumb head canon.
Of course. But that is the reason it’s being discussed here. Some of us think it’s “against the rules”.
I see. However, a spell of this nature has only appeared once in the game and has never returned since. I’m honestly not sure if that’s enough to say that this school actually exists in the lore.
Regarding your argument that such a multi-school could allow for conclusions about the lore:
This can only be valid if there is nothing else that contradicts it. This spell is used by Twilight Hammer cultists. Twilights Hammer are pure shadow priests, with no connection to the light. Twilight Hammer cultists throughout Cata use only pure shadow spells which are also called Twilight. So how is this supposed to work? Why should things be different at Darkshore? Why would two different magic schools share the same name, with one of it only appearing once? It makes the whole thing look like an outlier.
This wouldn’t be the first time. Other instances in which Blizzard has confirmed a gameplay/lore segregation also speak against drawing conclusions from the magic school / gameplay mechanics in general to the lore:
Unholy light (school: holy) “Unholy light” is really just shadow/void magic, so that’s kinda a weird ability kit there." https://x.com/DaveKosak/status/492026056581206016
Q: Are Blood Knights and Sunwalkers true Paladins or is it just for gameplay purposes? They seem different?
A: They have the same in-game abilities for gameplay sake. IIRC, we intentionally avoid referring to Sunwalkers as “paladins”. "https://web.archive.org/web/20131114031846/https://twitter.com/Loreology/status/314762311627837441
Q: What sort of firearms do people in WoW lore universe? Powder, bullets, both? Musket, flintelock?
A: “Lore-wise, black powder + flintlocks or wheel locks. But of course in-game, hunters fire at semi-automatic rates. ;)” https://x.com/DaveKosak/status/436978645551169536 And frankly, we’ve also depicted some vehicles with autocannons. We always favor interesting mechanics over lore in-game. https://x.com/DaveKosak/status/436978846919704576
It would have been incorrect to infer lore in those cases, and I believe it is the same in your example due to the uniqueness of the spell and the context of the Twilight Hammer.
I checked it myself, yeah, you’re right. And it’s not even archived.
Although I don’t think the person on the Warcraft wiki made it up, I did find a second answer that says that it’s just the personal opinion of the dev, so the source is off the table anyway. It seems we can only continue to guess and deduce.
I think that was the plan (see tweet about “true paladins” above). But I believe they (sadly) made a complete turn back to the human archetype mishmash with Legion, ensuring that everyone fits the class description on the main page. Even the Blood Knights lost their unique touch and became just another group of generic paladins.
But note that either way, they all share ‘being against darkness’.
Tbf, if they actually say: It’s the class, but in the lore it’s something else, then this whole discussion is unnecessary.
Because the Discipline Priest you’re referring to only exists in that form since Legion (a different kind of Discipline was meant before), the instance with being anathemic to each other was there first and (imo) remains dominant overall.
I think this is to say that it would probably be the most natural thing in the world for a Naaru to happen, and not an emotional crash, if it came to it.
Not rare for us, but still in-universe rare, perhaps?
An interesting input to that: It is unknown if this cycle occurs naturally without an external catalyst. Examples of darkened naaru are D’ore, M’uru, K’ure, and K’ara. Thrice, darkened naaru have also been shown to transform further into void gods; though in all known occasions this was only when their light was forcibly drained by an outside party, so it does not seem to be a natural phenomenon and is normally extremely rare. The ethereal Locus-Walker noted that the few cases of naaru falling into Void he knew of had occurred when mortals were involved, which he thought carried fascinating implications. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Naaru#Dark_naaru
I meant that more in principle.
I don’t think it’s wrong to ask for the quality level to be maintained, if not raised, and preferably not to fall below the established standard.
It definitely requires the conviction to act good. There is no way to avoid morals and ethics. Note that this is canon, as quoted in my previous post. I did not make that up.
In fact, the Blood Knights support this point. [The Blood Knights] members were instructed to drain power directly from the subdued M’uru, which granted them a variety of Light-based abilities aside from that of martial prowess. https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Blood_Knights#The_Burning_Crusade
More: https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Blood_Knights#Empowerment
Why would you want to invent a reason to bypass this requirement (with arcane magic) if it didn’t exist?
A significant character break and, in my opinion, poor writing. (Out of interest, do you think it’s good?) In Beyond the Dark Portal, he spoke out strongly against torture, and he also knows a truth spell or something that makes it unnecessary in order to obtain information. Now he makes a 180-degree turn? It doesn’t make sense. You can’t blame it on Xe’ra’s influence either, because he would have severed Alleria’s head (hyperbole) for using the Void.
If you are wondering why I am so critical, this is one of the reasons. I expect more of that. Of course, I don’t have the interpretive authority here, but I hope you can still see my point.
No, don’t get me wrong. I’m referring to the moral characterisation of its wielders and what is coherently possible from a narrative point of view there. TL;DR: Believable characters. But to be honest, the moment I typed that, it already felt like a lost cause.
I’ll propaply give it a rest.
My last read was that the Void Elves do this because they see the Void as an extremely powerful weapon. This makes them as Alturian as a nuke. But I’m not talking about good intentions. That’s not the problem. I’m talking about using evil [pov: people on azeroth] powers for the good and I’m saying that this conflicts with the stuff you need to believe to be able to use the light (without forcing it with arcane). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_cause_corruption
Discipline Some priests pride themselves on pragmatism. They understand that light casts a shadow, that darkness is defined by light, and that true discipline stems from one’s ability to balance these opposing powers in services of a greater cause. While these priests possess many holy virtues to aid their allies, they also dabble in the dark arts to debilitate their enemies—always exercising immense discipline to keep themselves away from the brink of insanity. Many would say the ends justify the means; scriptures both virtuous and vile should be studied and understood to protect the congregation.
The same is true for the disc (which is why I called it an inconsistency), due to the requirement “the conviction to be good” and that if you’re being pragmatic against your own virtues, you’re hardly able to believe that you’re acting morally good. Let’s remind that using void to “debilitate” enemies is extremely cruel due to the nature of shadow spells.
Regarding the bias, I was actually quite open-minded about it, but as I previously stated, in Legion, there was only a second, somewhat unstable Ashbringer for the artifact questline. And the preview alone doesn’t convince me because it’s too abstract and won’t hold up if you get concrete.
Hard to say. They changed a lot of the cosmology with chronicles, so things may have got mixed up. Like they did with the previous (noncanonical) RPG, I wish they would finally provide some clarification.
I’ve always thought the void was pretty neat, tbh, and felt like the people who went “crazy” with it, didn’t know what it was like to have ADHD and ten million thoughts at once. As for the Old Gods? Feels to me that in reality they’re either 1. corrupted by something or 2. like any ancient beings that get bored, want to destroy their sandbox and start over again. They’re only evil because they want to destroy something someone else doesn’t want destroyed.
Omg this is so cool that the Devs directly stated that the Velf Paladin is very intentional and is intentionally designed to “have room for growth”. That’s exciting and means we shall see more of her in the future!
