Because usually forcing a path to players multiple times like quest creates this repeatitive process that’s just boring for players and that’s why there’s intro skips like the maw, because there’s parts of questlines that are not fun at all to repeat several times, while the tier sets doesn’t have these number of steps to start the process of getting your reward, also Blizzard could just let us earn tmogs for all classes and armor typer per account with 1 character each time you get 1 item.
I do, as mentioned several times and you can check, I´ve most of the worst mounts and when we reply to this kind of topic or ask for improvements is also to avoid the philosophies from previous Devs to keep going, as I mentioned before and you said “different topic”, there’s other MMOs also providing rewards and you can compare those philosophies and how are implemented against player physology.
I’d feel mad against Devs for doing changes late but not against my fellow players, just like mecha done achivement that was changed from nowhere during 9.1.5 instead during 8.2, also I feel glad that the Doomwalker mount was changed from low drop to 100% because I did 72 attempts, that means that any new players with only 1 character could try for 5 years without getting the drop.
Devs should think about players with 1 character to X amount to create rewards, just like the Shadowlands rares that you can try via the conduit energy but their rewards are also available for Grateful Offerings and Anima as bad luck
At this point , I don’t know what could be a good change for Love is in the air mount or World bosses from MoP regarding an exact number, since RNG has two components at least, I’ll decrease spawn time to 3-5mins, so players won’t waste all day waiting, remove coin limit as mentioned on CC forums and change the lockout from weekly to daily, but if you really want a number of a good %, It should be equal to Rukhmar (0.2%) compared to Sha of Anger (0.01), that extra 0 it’s a lot, actually all drops regarding RNG should have a limit like 1% the lowest possible value to implement, we need changed on philosophies that allowed this ridiculous values for gameplay that dies from 1 hit and the attept ratio is limit by a weekly id.
That those changes are required in order to avoid the same issues on the future and if they’ve any ideas feel free to speak here, at the end we just raise our hands to concers and Devs should decided, that’s why X45-Heartbreake drop didn’t change during the event and Dev mentioned about checking how to proceed, because the easy solution was just to change the drop to 1% but the event has few days left and they want to provide a better solution.
Are you aware of the “Why do birds fly”-metaphor from Tales of Berseria? You try to represent one single truth while there is not a single answer. Everyone has different point of view and no answer is the golden one. How do you answer a question like “Why do birds fly” actually? You cannot. And this the true nature of the discussion. However, we can find common issues which can be addressed by Blizzard.
We get it, you are not okay with this. Expressing your underhanded snide remarks at first was acceptable because you had a right to vent but going forward it only cements a flawed discourse. You’re not above anyone else, nobody is “bottom tier” and nobody is your personal sprout to correct and cater.
These are digital goods and your logic cannot applied to it. Within one button click you can change the value at the whim. There are no actual rules, they are fluid. Your efforts are acknowledged as a player but overall you have earned nothing because it’s not stored on your computer but on a server you cannot access.
And it can be taken away from you anytime they see it fit. This happened with Amazon movie and tv show licenses all the time and this also applies to this game with FOMO items. But they do own these vanity goods but for one (the deathweel). This brings me to the following question: Why should anyone take your posting in consideration? Or better, why should I do it?
My point of view fits more if I open up my own private wow server because then nobody can take away my actual progression, which can be preserved as a saved file without having the fear that everything we do is truly a waste of time. What arguments can you bring me to sway me over to your point of view?
The average player who represents World of Warcraft. None of us both. It is a very simple problem. You don’t go after specific niches, you will organically push them into these niches when they realize that the time spent means something and they can achieve goals without the reliance on RNG alone. Final Fantasy 14 does this very well. You put carrot on the sticks in the place to keep them going while also maintaining the pace.
Such a system is already in place for the artifact weapons (Prestige Level 10, 30, 50, 80). Why don’t we hear any complaints about it? Because people have no opportunity to complain here. The few players who do complain are notorious complainers for the sake of being elitists.
There are more reasonable approaches to lessen the time consumption while it still feels rewarding.
One character can farm everything but is limited to a new slot system and how many items they can bring either unlock or send to their alts at the end of the run. You can further improve the slot system by tying it to the achievement point system to increase the available slots.
Every armor-type character can unlock similar armor-type transmogs. A Paladin can farm a warrior-only transmog and vice versa. This is what Hazzikostas would likely do to save time and energy on a problem without doing anything at all while he can still yell someone’s pr phrase and how exciting™ the gameplay loop still is.
Increase the “magic find” based on certain conditions.
Sell the sets in an ingame vendor and sell it for a ingame currency.
Otherwise:
Get the sets on the online shop and sell it for money.
This is why these items have no actual value. They are variables and switches which can be turned on/off at will with a code line. Everyone should earn everything over a natural course because it is more organic and natural. The idea is to keep the players in the loop and not give them extreme ups and downs. This is something for loot box players. But the WoW loop system needs to be worked on to keep the ball running.
They were excited for it when they first started to farm for it back when Wrath was current. It took them this long to get it. At some point between then and now it became less of a ‘I want the shiney thing that I think is cool’ and became more of ‘I won’t let all the time I’ve invested toward this goal be wasted’.
Your ‘time based difficulty’ is the epitome of preying on sunk cost fallacy, hard stop. It’s even the reason why I still make my weekly Galleon kills. The concept I wanted the mushan beast mount for (a savage pandaren warrior) to rp with, has lost all it’s appeal in the interim after 3+ months of weekly lockout kills. In total I’m up around 1900+ kills on the dang thing at this point and it’s less about slaking my desire as opposed to ‘I won’t let the time I’ve sunk in this already go to waste cause it has to drop some time’.
That is the problem with your ‘time based dificulty’ it’s not difficult cause it takes time (such as say a marathon boss blitz where it’s just boss after boss after boss, that, maybe not have a ton of insta kill mechanics but are long, such as Hush in Binding of Isaac, or Greed Mode in the same game) but because it’s a time WASTER.
The only ‘value’ being preserved is in the haves/havenots sense as outside this the value of infinitely reproducible digital items is specific to the individual (as it should be). Much like how with that one Blue picture, alot of people didn’t see any value in it, but other’s appreciated it for what it is. Value on a digital item, specifically when it’s for cosmetic options, is entirely and utterly individually subjective.
Also: way to improperly paraphrase others to misquote for the explicit purposes of misleading. Very good way to see how disingenuous you are toward honest discourse.
The full thing was pointing out that things like Feats of Strength (of which the original Gladiator stuff falls into) makes more sense to have a more tangible Community Value due to being purely skill based, either by making you do things that are extremely difficult solo (Mad World for all Visions, All Masks, Full clears, for both Org/Storm) or by being the best at pvp (0.5% top of the ladders). Do I wish those mogs/mounts would be open to every one, yer darn tootin’, but, I can see the point, in these PARTICULAR situations why it isn’t because it invalidates the skill involved in getting them.
Where as with the Legacy grinds, it’s not a thing of skill. I remember timeless isle at the end of mop in the moments I could play on my dinky laptop while couch surfing, it wasn’t even difficult then just cause random groups of dozens of people attack the same thing. Now the only difference is you can do it with a single toon, but now, and even then, it wasn’t a factor of skill to kill it. And it’s always been a slot machine of ‘who gets the thing’.
You don’t see people with the grind mounts and think ‘wow, they’re so cool/such a good player’ you think ‘lucky f***er, you don’t have to keep having your time wasted’.
The ‘time based’ system you are supporting is predatory on conditioned mind sets (the bliz chore that they’ve been working us toward since dailies were introduced) gambling addiction (if I pull the lever this time I’ve gotta win!) and sunk cost fallacy (if I stop now, all the time I’ve put into it already would have been for nothing.
These are all factors into why we are seeing so many players who’d normally do old content farming start to burn out/leave, and it’s even going so far as to affect World First raid teams because ‘you did this this week, but, ooooh tough cookies, you didn’t get the thing you needed to actually progress, guess you’ll have to try again next week!’
And before you try to be stupid about this, no it’s not fun. It’s a low response effort behavior which makes it less likely to go into extinction and the mount is what serves as the reinforcer but reinforced behavior is not synonymous with “fun”. Going to work each day is reinforced behavior. Doing menial household chores are reinforced behavior. It’s the same with low drop rate mounts. Thinning the schedule does not make the reinforcer more powerful, it simply helps maintain the reoccurrence of behavior.
Like I said, low response effort behavior. I choose not to stop but hoping the devs understand this type of reinforcement schedule does not help their game in any way. I’m subbed for far more than just killing galleon 30 times a week.
the intent is for a few players to get it by chance on a kill they do for other reasons.
you’re not supposed to farm it. that’s why you’re not having fun. you’re not supposed to get it. you are not one of the few lucky ones. you are playing W R O N G.
You don’t get to dictate what is and isnt the right game for me nor do you get to dictate what the intent of design is. MMOs have evolved and WoW is at the point where it leans more to a lobby game than an MMO. It will continue to evolve and this is our feedback towards that evolution. You want stupid grinds and low drop rates go play classic.
Let’s not jump to conclusions. I agree with you that he is not entitled to the mount yet he is also right that it shouldn’t take years to get a single mount too. We do not know how many characters the player has and with which transmog it will go.
There are no underhanded snide remarks (if you feel there were, when I made them that was not my intent anyway). I will extend an olive branch and explain. So, when I said, “…. Specifically to address your literal bottom tier ‘Name-Calling’.”. The reason I said ‘literal’ is because if you look at Graham’s Hierarchy of Disagreement, ‘Name-Calling’ is the lowest tier at the bottom. I even stated later in that same post. In this pyramid, ‘Name-Calling’ is the lowest form of a disagreement – it is the 7th of the 7 tiers. We can use numbers if you prefer, but felt like this was easiest.
Just to clarify, neither one of these comments called anyone bottom tier.
Now, Responding to Tone is the 5th of the 7 tiers (I was going to say mid-low tier, but I we can stick with numbers), which criticizes the tone of the writing. This leads into what we have now where the conversation forces the accused to defend themselves and/or specifically tailor their writing in such a way not to elicit an over-aggressive response. I had hoped with me taking the time to respond to you in a manner where I explain the concept in detail would imply good will - I felt like I expressed a positive feeling in engaging in conversation. This is all I have to say about this – there is no undertone or snide comments. Just the topic at hand.
If you truly believe this, then why are players killing MoP World Bosses thousands of times when they already have a mount of equal value (since they all equal zero value apparently)? If my logic cannot be applied, then how do you explain sentimental value a player has toward an item? How would you explain the negative feeling Mornnah has when the title for Layer 8 is moved to Layer 4? Do Not Nerf Tower Ranger Title 9.2.5
So, there is clearly value here, right? Something is incentivizing players to continue attempting for a mount or a rare set of shoulders to drop – despite the fact that “[they] have earned nothing because it’s not stored on your computer.” What is driving that? I am not really sure why we are discussing this, because rewards are clearly driving the playerbase to do things. People value their time generally, so it doesn’t makes sense to say none of these things have value.
The answer is perceived value, which I will come back to later.
This is only partially correct, but your order of operations are off. For example, if you take raiding, and you adjust the difficulty of the fight, would you take the ‘average player who represents World of Warcraft’? No, you would consider the thoughts and opinions of those who play that specific content. Similarly, if you ask the community, should we introduce an Elite Mythic raid tier, you wouldn’t ask the average player. You may not even ask those among your average raiders. You would ask those who would participate in that content, right? So, your Mythic raiders would be the average that you pull feedback. This all makes sense for Skill-Based Difficulty content, and it is a niche of a niche.
Likewise, playing the RNG game of earning mounts, transmogs, toys, and etc is a category of content just like raiding is a category. We have 800+ mounts, 65,000+ sources of transmogs, 550+ toys, and 7,500+ recipes of content that has a very wide range of RNG to it. Just as most raiders spend time and effort at a Normal and Heroic level, the vast majority of your drop rates are over 1%. However, there are a few items with a much lower chance of dropping. Or there is content that takes an exceedingly long time to complete (maybe weeks or months). These few items are your comparison to mythic raiding. It’s an outlet for some who enjoy this style of gameplay. So, it is not that you are going after a specific niche, but rather your niches (again, in this case raiding and RNG rewards) are so large that they create natural niches within themselves.
Well… let’s actually explain the story. Initially, when the Artifact system was designed, the Honor Levels were character specific. However, whenever Blizzard merged the levels from all the characters’ accounts, there was no way to separate them from that point onward. The reason nobody complains here is because they didn’t give out Honor Levels during the transition. You earned all the Honor Levels you had – even if you completed part of them on another character.
In what way is this comparable to getting the Balance of Power appearance on one character, and then getting them on the rest of the 11 classes? Furthermore, this change was done because players didn’t want to start from zero when it come to the Honor Level system. This effected the participation levels of PvP negatively. Here, if a person doesn’t get Balance of Power on a 2nd character, then no harm is done by not giving them the rest of the appearance, because they were not participating in that content anyway.
I actually don’t like doing this part, but I am going to play the role of the vocal minority, and see what kind of responses you would give. How do you appease those who are unhappy with your suggestions?
What about players who do not have a lot of achievements? Wouldn’t they be left out? So, I would need to grind achievements before I can grind transmogs? What about players who find the achievement system a waste of time, because they don’t like running old raids for old achievements? Isn’t this forcing players to play in a way they don’t want?
What if Ion only plays a Shaman, and he feels obligated to level alts in order to get all the obviously better looking Paladin sets? Isn’t that forcing players through content they don’t want to do?
Oh, great, another currency on another vendor. What if I don’t like the activity necessary to get that currency? Is the currency from endgame content? What if my connection is bad?
What if I hate gold making? Are you telling me that I am forced to either spend RL money or waste time grinding out gold? How is this different from grinding runs in a raid?
So, now I can answer this question. The Communal Value acts as the perceived value of an item within the game. This perceived value is driven by the time and effort players are willing to put into the game in order to acquire this item. Now, the perceived value is just the individual’s perception of value (shocking, I know), but the communal value is what the community’s perceived value. We get this value by the time and effort the average of community (that participate in that niche of the game) have already given to acquire this item. This value is naturally adjusted and finally set as communities participate in this content while it is current.
So, why is a point of reference for this so important? Because through the collective gameplay of players participating in that content, we now have the communal value benchmark. At this point, any reduction in the necessary skill will need to be made up in the form of time (again, taking into account Macro-level and Micro-level). This gives us two things:
This gives the ability to allow more access to content to players with less skill. If players are willing to wait until the content is easy enough for them and a few friends to complete, then maybe they can wait a few months and complete the content at a lesser difficulty. If they are willing to wait longer, then they may be able to solo it at one point. Therefore, over the course of the contents lifetime, more access is given to more players.
This allows players to establish a level of confidence in the communal value, where they can feel like if they participate today, their time and effort are not going to be devalued tomorrow. This will be true for Skill-Based Content and Time-Based Content. This system is immune to the biased preferences and prioritization of one type of content over another.
So, why should you take my posting into consideration? Because with a system such as this in place, you are not subject to the whims of a player who find achievements a worthless form of measurement for accessing more transmog. Conversely, you are not subject to someone who overemphasis the importance of achievements in progressing your collections. You do not have to argue arbitrary points like, should you be able to receive loot of the same armor type vs should you be able to loot everything with one character. Time-Based difficulty is basically, plug-and-play. Once it is set up, there is little to no maintenance in readjusting the value randomly. Am I saying this is a perfect system, of course not, but it is the most consistent we have at the moment.
The evidence is in someone’s actions. And there are a lot of people that find the Sha of Anger mount worth their time, because they are out there each week killing it. There are others who spend gold cap on it when it appears on the BMAH. So, it seems like it is still worth it to many.
Those that don’t probably have already forgotten about it.
What is fun will not only change from person to person, but from one type of activity to another. If I enjoy a soda, then that doesn’t mean I had fun drinking a soda. If I had fun competing in a race, then that doesn’t mean I enjoyed every footstep of the marathon. Furthermore, one cannot say that I hate sodas, because it wasn’t fun to drink it, nor can they say marathons are not enjoyable, because each step wasn’t a surge of fun. The same is true with various forms of content within WoW. While running the same dungeon, raid, or MoP World Boss doesn’t have the same intensity as pushing a new M+ high, it is still fun and enjoyable to many. Fun and enjoyment can come in many different forms and intensities.
It’s a hobby people enjoy because it is a game. Most of us also forget that Blizzard can take our accounts away any moment when either the game gets closed for no particular reason or we get punished. There is no safety net and it’s ultimately the fate of WoW, when they decide not to keep the servers running after the game switches into the maintenance mode.
We all have read news articles about the licenses which have been taken away from customers who bought games, movies and music from Nintendo, Apple or Amazon. World of Warcraft falls into the same situation which why I cannot take all this talk about value seriously. We have no access to our stored characters in the case the game really shuts down so we can inject it into a private server. There is no actual value, only an artificial one. I would agree with the topic if we had more privileges but we do not have them. And ultimately, this brings me to the decision why almost everything should be accessible to all players all the time. FOMO has no place in such a game and others.
Again, your point of view is not the only one and neither the correct one.
The average player does not raid. Well, they do at least one raid, the CPU-generated one in the new starter zone. The developers tried to bind the average players more into the raiding gameplay or why do you think we had so many “cater to the 1%”-discussions in the past? WoW suffers from several problems which can be linked to the leading developers of the game:
Raiding is the primary focus of the game and the competitive scene with addons is a gatekeeper. I tend to say that casual players see this as an immense stress factor
One faction is favored in the public
The content has underhandedly adjusted so you waste more time, ranging from removing the original world quest finder, changing enemy behaviors/the leash to the reward and rng system starting with Battle for Azeroth
Actual important updates have been hold back which the community requests until the final patches of the game, when they start to “listen”
The game’s leading director’s public character and achievements are a visual representation with what is wrong and ultimately also a telltale sign why things feel awkward for most players
Skill-based difficulty content is fine but the content needs to stay accessible for everyone. If they cannot get it now, then in a few years. I do agree with you that they take mythic raider’s feedback into consideration but this isn’t the mass who sustains their paychecks. Top tier raiders are a low priority player group who has too much influence over the game’s design and we saw with the decline of Shadowlands what happens when the casuals move to other games: They started catering to non-raider requests. The true power belongs with the casuals and not the raiders, after all.
So, where do we draw the line? With the averages who do not raid but are here for a story. You can get them into raiding as well but then again, the game has too many problems so an average player will enjoy it. This is likely also why they release the new social contract because their catering to the best and most competent players drives the casuals away.
The ultimate goal is to collect and enjoy in the game, either better armor, achievements or transmog. All of this fine but the game is overdue for another change in rules so people stick longer to it.
The acquisition of vanity items is bad though, similar to how toys are handled. given my posting above about digital goods, the whole philosophy needs to shift in pure enjoyment for the players. Nobody cares about the “thrill of trying” when it takes too long. The Final Fantasy 14 system is perfect. You still need to grind dungeons and raids but you will get the reward sooner or later. The perfect solution, actually.
This topic has nothing to do with my posting, to make it blunt.
Same principle. Do it at one character, unlock the transmogs on all classes. It’s account-wide, after all. An account-wide Balance of Power will work the same way then.
It’s just your twisted way of saying that you have no actual reason against handing it out to players who have already done the content once. Let’s skip this topic then.
Find other or new parts of the game to enjoy and discover
If there is nothing for you to do at the moment, then take a break and come back later, to quote YoshiP from Final Fantasy 14.
It’s a game, take it into consideration and go more often outside™ (to quote the loading text somehow)
You grind achievements naturally by doing content, either old or new. We’re still talking about adjustable unlocks. Place the unlockable slots within the first 250-2000 achievement points and it will be fine. It’s all about making the carrot look good and encouraging the player through a philosophy which can be easily understood by giving them more opportunities and activities to make without forcing them into it.
This is not what I wrote about it. I especially staed “similar armor-type transmogs”, speaking mail, plate, cloth and leather.
You already have done it plenty of times and you will continue to do it in Dragonflight. Don’t see your point here, unless you’re asking for an account-wide currency system which can be accessed with all characters.
This is already happening, so it won’t be a problem. But at least it will make unavailable vanity items accessible for people who didn’t get it for free the first time around. That’s still a better system than removing it.
At the end of the day it is just your opinion, like I have mine. Will people agree with you? I’m sure - but will the majority of players do the same?
You participate in getting the ingame items but you have no claimer rights because Blizzard has it which also devalues them at the same time. Your emotional worth for various items is different from a person who was there earlier or later, so it makes no sense to discuss value at all, if I think about it. From my point of view, nothing you write actually matters because if the game gets closed tomorrow, everyone will realize in what situation they actually were in from the beginning. The best solution would to make the items accessible over time for everyone for all players who either enjoy different parts of the game or weren’t there initially, period.