"Value Preservation" CC Thread

Original Thread: Discussion: Skill-Based Difficulty, Time-Based Difficulty, and Value Preservation - #16 by Qyune-exodar

So, I’m in agreement with everyone disagreeing with Qyune: alot of that ‘time gating’ is in the 2-4 year wait, why have players need to spend 10s of hours every dang weak to try and get one thing.

It’s not fun.

It’s not enjoyable.

1920ish kills on Galleon isn’t fun. It’s bloody well frustrating.

Get over yourself you gatekeeping Mythic Raider. Seriously, is 2-4 years of you getting something, that you stop using for the new shiny right away worth keeping other players a chance at having because them somehow having something they like devalues your accomplishment?

It’s the same thing with the removed mogs and quest lines. Because you did it then, that means no one else should ever have a chance at it, because, lord forbid, other people can have cool/fun things too if they are willing to be patient, or because they are new customers of the product and want to feel like the company values them, and doesn’t just waste their time or punish them for being new users to the product.

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I think that mounts should be easier to farm. For example, you could get 3% higher drop chance on a mount if you don’t get it from a boss you kill. After two failed attempts, you have the original droprate + 6% chance of getting the mount, and so on until you get it and then the mount won’t drop for you again. That way, even if you don’t get the mount, you get something from each run (a better chance next time).

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objection: opinion.

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The CC-topic is well thought out but they haven’t discussed not much about the “journey” players should have.

Is it really fair to farm endlessly the very same dungeon/raid for a transmog/mount/etc? A better solution would be to have an overall carrot-on-the-stick situation but this would require additional achievement ui changes and edits.

I wrote about this recently in another topic:

The bigger problem is that the game is not rewarding enough so people can relax more.

  • Almost every cosmetic reward is either on a timer, too hard to get (no guaranteed drop like in FF14) or inaccessible
  • The whole gameplay focus is on performance, there is no permanent Gold Saucer, nor does WoW encourages trying other races out
  • The Achievement System is outdated. It does not offer regular rewards (every 100 points = new transmog/mount/whatever) and it also does not encourages to try new features out.

Generally speaking, people are not enough encouraged to do other content because the system does not support this. They tried to change their stance a bit with Battle Pets but there are neither great tutorials (+ free starter Pokémon, I mean, battle pets) nor rewards which goes hand in hand with the effort put in.

And this philosophy can also applied to almost everything when it comes to the rewards. The developers are asking too much from its players and give too little when it comes to vanity items. Just take a look at the Shaman forms from the Night Fae. The prices are ridiculously high and you also need even offerings to unlock them while there has been year-long request to give Shamans more wolf forms. And the biggest offender is: You cannot even use them permanently, only within a rest zone or a short time.

I also brought up a scenario where things go crazy in the current system:

BfA was surely a total miss when it comes to vanity items:

  • Faction pride items are either locked behind rated PVP, FOMO or too hard to get
  • Simple recolor mounts from MoP costing up to 60k gold (Alliance)
  • Interesting mounts “gold sinks”, costing up to 333k.
  • FOMO mobile AH vendor for 5m, although this was one of the few mounts which would have been justified being put into the cash store.

On a personal level, I think that Qyune tries to hard too justify bad game design. The solution is actually pretty simple: Encourage the player by giving them everything over time and feel happiness while also keeping the carrot up. It shouldn’t be about luck but invested time and doing all the content because nobody of us owns the items and characters we have, we agreed to this in the EULA.

Include a pity counter for failed attempts and give the rewards to the people over time so they can start farming another mounts/transmogs they want to have. To keep the ball rolling, encourage them to do so by having an overall achievement system which will unlock more benefits and vanity items based on how much they have done in the game:

  • Every 10k achievement points should reward a 20% EXP-increase in Chromie and Timewalking scenarios.
  • Every 5k achievement points increases the heirloom armor quality.
  • Every 1k achievement points unlocks a mount recolor.
  • Having many different race characters leveled provides them with alternate heritage weapons and armors colorizations.

These are just a few examples how such a system can work but people should be rewarded for doing all the content the developers have programmed. Blizzard was always about making games accessible, so why not apply the philosophy to all the game features and the reward system? It feels not only more natural but with the right rewards can also bring a more healthy MAU to the game.

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Does any one enjoy one shotting the same world boss, waiting 15 minutes, repeating on yet another alt, and doing that for 10+ alts, once per week, every week, for weeks on end?

I mean actually enjoy it not ‘I enjoy collecting things’ (of which there are quite a few) but essentially rolling dice with worse odds than winning cash prizes in power ball lottery? (approx 41% chance to win $4, another 13.2% chance to win $4, a 1.7% chance to win $7, and a 0.096% chance to win $100)

You are litterally more likely to win $100 playing the lottery than you are to get a drop on Galleon’s Saddle

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i can’t speak for others, i have not interviewed everyone.

So, you, yourself, do not find it fun, but a nebulous group of ‘others’ might but aren’t forth coming about saying so, but they must exists, so it’s fine?

Yeah, nah fam, I’ve not seen any one say they enjoy the ‘legacy drop gamble’ only complain about it, and then the only response when they get the thing they were farming for isn’t excitement but relief that they don’t have to work at getting that drop any more. That’s not a good thing.

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It was more of a common sense-question.
In reality, no one enjoys doing the same repetitive work all the time. And this is still a game.

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Many people value exclusivity. Blizzard understands that and ensures that there are some one-time rewards in each expansion. If Blizzard says “this will be removed” like the old Mage Tower or KSM mounts and players respond by working to get their cosmetics by the deadline, Blizzard needs to keep their word. Part of why I quit for a long time was because Blizzard reneged on the Ulduar protodrakes.

Sorry, but you’re just not entitled to limited-time items that were in the game when you weren’t playing.

I do agree that mount drop rates need a boost. I rarely bother to go mount farming because it usually ends in disappointment.

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a new player can obtain 99% of the things in this game. Some of them do take a while, but it’s an MMO…growth comes in many different forms…sometimes it’s pure luck, sometimes you have to obtain the necessary skills before you can obtain something, and sometimes it’s just part of the long journey (like other people have pointed out).

Remember, this isn’t a standard single player MMO - a brand new adventurer coming into the game for the first time is not going to be on par with an Archmage of 15 years (both in terms of skill and their collections/adventure). it also dilutes the sense of being “new” in a new world - something many of us wow veterans place a lot of value in honestly.

People place a lot of value of a character’s success based on how they look…yes it’s okay for a new player to start at square 1…this is an old game, it’s to be expected. :heavy_heart_exclamation:

it’s just a fact that older content has been solved in many cases…so they remove the items for that reason. They are continually adding new “cool” things with their seasonal model, so to say that they don’t value “new players” here, is an exaggeration imo.

anyway, i don’t think this is a big issue with “new players” - they don’t care about this stuff, they just want to learn how to play the game. Collections are an end-game meta. some GD pllayers generally just use this topic as a way to cry about things they either can’t get because of low skills (like glad/challenge mode type items), or because they missed out on the season/era for whatever reason. :100:

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Let’s be fair here, it’s more like 85% of all the vanity items. It doesn’t help that lore-based quality or accompany-items have been removed from the game which can be still relevant to this day.

Take a look at the Void Elves. They don’t have any flying mount available to them which suits their heritage armor in a meaningful way. One of the mounts - the N’Zoth AOTC-mount was FOMO. The current one for S4 is FOMO.

And such problems can you find across the whole game. You want to get the bat or Hippogryph mount for your Forsaken or Night Elves without using a WoW Classic polygon model? It is gone.

This is not a good concept to deal with.

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I disagree that they should be that easy. I think the rarest mounts should have their drop rate increased to 1:1000 from the present 1:2000 for pandaria world bosses, 1:3000 for love rocket, and 1:50k+ for the tamed bloodfeaster that drops off certain random mobs in nazmir.

No raid or dungeon mount should have a lower drop rate than 1:100.

AND there should be bad luck protection of the same sort that was applied to Legion legendaries, where after you reached that point with the number of attempts, it was guaranteed on the next attempt. So didn’t have it by attempt 1000? You get it on 1001.

Speaking as someone who has 3 Pandaria world boss mounts, but 3000+ attempts on the Sha of Anger.

no i don’t think it’s 85%…it’s higher, almost everything in the game. :100:

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Any opinion on the example I brought up? This is a common problem World of Warcraft has. Meaningful rewards locked away which are needed for class or race fantasies.

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it’s not an opinion, i visit collection sites every day, and i’ve been an avid collector for a long time. just stating facts, you can be mad about it or whatever. go check for yourself.

i’m estimating, but i can tell you from my personall collection - 99% of the things i own can be obtained by a player that starts today.

most removed items are seasonal challenges, or very old items from a completely different era (like scarab lord, and some titles nobody cares about).

“meaningful” items are def available to new players, but that word is impossible to define for any one player…

why i’m even arguing collections with a lvl 14 player idk. but yeah, unless you have a specific item you want to discuss, it is what it is i think. :100:

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I won’t deny that you can get a lot in the game - but when it comes to quality content, do you agree that the team lacks there a bit? Take the vicious mounts as an example. Why did the developers did not update the old mounts with the current models?

Trolls, Gnomes, Blood Elves and Dwarves are most affected by this by not getting visual updates to their old models. What do you think is most likely the reason they did not update them? Carrot on the stick-approach? Or just not having the time for it?

The LV on this American character has nothing to do with my opinion.

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i think i can agree with you on the quality, yes. but it’s weird when it comes to those graphical things…some players are extremely conservative about stuff, and enjoy those old looking models the way they are (take brewfest ram for example, or the old cheetah form for druids).

It’s a hard decision to go back and change things sometimes, because it affects those collectors in different ways. Can def backfire :heavy_heart_exclamation:

but then again, they sometimes go back and tweak things…like improving the quality of a transmog piece (pretty sure they updated Pandaria challenge mode armors at one point), or giving players a second mount (like the scarab lord bug - they gave anyone who had the original, a second, more modern version). They could always do something like that too :100:

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People have to understand that Blizzard has always updated their old models and many mounts are overdue. And I don’t think it would be so hard to offer a toggle option in the mount menu so people can switch between the models.

I struggle to find suitable mounts for my characters to fulfill the race fantasies. Trolls don’t have access to many bats - and one, which might fit the bill, was a removed game shop item which I did not get. Gnomes have many poor quality ground mounts to them while the vicious mount looks like you want to use with the heritage armor. Why is a non-flag version not available to the players? It’s literally the only mount which looks not pre-MoP in terms of quality.

Many of these problems could have avoided a long time ago. The Pandaren get with the upcoming patch finally some good looking weapon and gear models which I’m looking forward to enjoy myself as well. The team really needs to make more items accessible (expedition transmogs) or bring FOMO-items back where it actually matters (mostly BfA armors and mounts) because the game does not offer enough race- and class fantasy items which suits both the weapons and the transmogs.

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A lot of items are now significantly less available due to greatly reduced drop rates or placing them in content that will become inaccessible in the future. Or just stealth removal, as the majority of non-leveling patterns for BC content, whose only source is Coilskar chests that not only no longer drop anything, but were even nerfed hard in TBCC. So if you see one on the auction house, it’s probably been there for 10 years and has an asking price of 750k.

Fake news that dozens of patterns were entirely removed so collectors couldn’t get them ever? Unreasonable expectations on the part of collectors who want those patterns?

Are you seriously trying to tell us that a 1:25k pattern drop off a cata world boss is a reasonable expectation and the only problem is players with unreasonable expectations? Or that collectors should be able to anticipate buying 1 pattern a year for millions by transferring characters from obscure realms after buying massive numbers of tokens to get it?

Or what about the inherent toxicity in the mindset of an item not having value because the person likes the item (in a video game) but because other people DON’T have it or can’t get it.

If your value is based on has/has not for cosmetic items and things of that nature, not on actually liking or desiring the item but because you having it means other’s cannot have it, there is an intrinsic problem there.

Case and point: I have some of these items, like cross promo primal flame saber, and I think a few other things from over the years, that I don’t particularly value but some one else things is the bomb digity. Since it’s bound to my account, and untransferable like real goods are (which is where scarcity value would be okay) that item which has no value to me has an infinite and unobtainable value to some one else, and that’s honestly, not okay.