I’ve debated this topic in my head for years. I used to use SIMs and the tool in game that you plug you weights into in order to “optimize” my gear. But why? SIMs is not even close to an accurate representation of in game scenarios. People don’t parse perfectly or even near perfectly. Bosses and trash packs require various amount of movement and or interruptions to stay alive. This means that various secondary stats could be worth more depending on the up-time on a target and your ability to perfectly execute your abilities in an optimized manner.
Since all but the top players in the world could possibly get close to perfection, why is everyone else SIMing gear and not even taking into consideration that they might get more output with other secondaries that don’t SIM well, due to the variability of the mechanics, need for interruptions/cc, and their own inability to consistently execute the right APM in the right rotation?
I think people blindly follow guides and SIMs without really testing their equipment in actual content and just accept the SIMs and guides as gospel, because people would rather not do that kind of extensive testing and math on their own. I wonder how many people could be doing more with different setups due to the type of content they run, and their skill level (or lack thereof) with their classes.
Let’s debate away, but keep it civil. I enjoy engaging topics, and this one has always had me curious. It might give me something interesting to reply to while at work.
People use sims because it’s impossible to tell if gear is an upgrade or not by looking at the tooltip. If you have 2 trinkets and one has a chance to proc 1000 damage and the other has a chance to proc 100 haste, there is almost no way to tell what is better, especially since the proc chances aren’t on the tooltips.
Even if someone doesn’t play optimally, the gear that sims higher will still do more damage in most scenarios.
By simming, you can see the mathematical best possible output you could do with your character. It is then up to you to get as close as possible to that number, you’re just looking at a perfect reference. Of course people won’t be able to do that.
I think more people don’t understand simming, or the variables you can input. Only see “patchwerk - 1 boss - 5 minutes” and think that is the only option available.
Because it is a guideline of which could be better. I don’t know if my 465 geti’ikku is better than my 475 jeweled sharksplitter so I simmed it and my 475 weapon is better by 400 dps. But I know that geti’ikku is a better weapon with forced downtime so I use that instead.
I think commonly sims get looked at in the wrong context. your not really aiming for the sim number we all know that is next to impossible and odds are if you are hitting it in a raid you prob are ignoring all the mechanics. instead look at simmed upgrades as simply a higher ceiling. if im simming at 1000dps and im able to do 750-800 then when im simming at 1200 playing the same way maybe ill be doing 800-900. the SIM itself isn’t a real indication of the damage you will do but when you see a increase in your sim it does relate to a possible increase in your output…the numbers just don’t match. if your way off then picking a different stat to account for downtime isn’t a better solution then just practicing and getting better at your rotation.
This is one of those topics people will argue about eternally, but…
I don’t think simming should be remotely necessary. If folks want to do it, power to them, but the return should be super marginal compared to what can reasonably be accomplished just by experimenting in-game. As others noted though, such experimentation isn’t really reasonable right now. There’s too much convolution.
Might not be everybody’s cup of tea but I’d be pretty happy if we could revert back to mundane stats with a handful of straightforward but interesting procs so most upgrades are self-evident.
Movement and downtime wouldnt change your stat weights outside of mastery for certain specs. As for trinkets/essences/traits that would be effected, that’s pretty much up to you to figure out. I would use worldvein on Maut but not on Nzoth for instance.
You don’t need to be a top player to reach your sim DPS. You just need to execute your rotation, which you should be able to do. SIMs are the best way to figure out what’s going to be best, you just have to use your brain and think.
At the same time, I’ve been simming for optimization since like WotLK.
WoW has a long history of stats not being quite that clear cut. Outside of corruptions, this is probably the most mundane the stats have actually been.
All extremely good points. I know haste is an the highest weighted stat for many of the specs I play, but due to movement, interrupts, and cc I often wonder if going crit or master would be better. Haste specs benefit people who can keep up with the right APM and have the uptime and rotation expertise to keep that high APM up
They use sims to help cut down on the items that will never be an upgrade under any circumstance. People forget that there are different fight setting values you can use in most sims, they are not just “patchwork”. Plus sims do a better job of modeling things that would take you weeks to actually test out in game.
if anything sims higher it does more damage, it doesn’t have to be played optimally. Also, I use it because I always like to see my character improve and simming is a for sure way to do that
Simming isn’t remotely necessary to succeed. I think Blizzard did well enough that except for corruptions you can just equip better ilvl and long as you know what you are doing you will be able to complete the content you like. However with corruptions being so different its obvious that right now the difference is significant instead of marginal.
You could do experimentation at the end of the day that’s all simulations are.
Based on a few assumptions for proc rates the computer does your “optimal” rotation for the situation 1000, 5000, or 10000 times and gives you an average. The same thing with a statistically irrelevant average could be computed by you just spending an hour at a training dummy if that’s your cup of tea. The problem with manual experiments is the sample size would be too small to get an accurate read on the difference between gear EVEN if there was no corruption effects to worry about.
That said I got AOTC in EP with never simming upgrades so you can probably get far enough without doing it.
Thats true and I think most users know how to alter that in simc. But even with the various ways you can alter simc, I don’t think they perfectly model all the scenarios we face nor represent the variety of skill levels and downtime in fights we experience. If the weights say haste is your best stat and you can’t keep up the APM to press the buttons fast enough to make use of that haste either due to mechanics or lack of skill, simc isn’t going to tell you another stat would be better.
But that’s not a shortcoming of the simulation because that’s purely player skill dependent, the sim juts says “You can do better by equipping this”, it’s up to you to adapt
It’s definitely just needing to use sims for what they are, a tool for gear choices. Like any diagnostic, it’s only one consideration. I have a piece of 475 azerite on my DH that sims nearly 3k higher. In practice, when using that (since I lose an important trait), I perform significantly lower. I don’t use that piece. That’s also why if I’m ever worried about min/maxing, I consider the sim, my own ability, and also what people who are much better than me are using. It at least is a good starting point, since I’m not willing to spend a long time on a dummy to be sure.
I also believe the best stats wouldn’t be the same between pvp, mythic+, and raiding. What I’m getting at is I don’t think most people will see a difference in average numbers across all content by going with the highest ilvl, excluding corruptions since those are a game changer
