Did something change with rend (Arms)? When I started out, you were able to hit multiple targets with it at once. Now when I use it, it only hits the targeted bad guy. I was told to look over the talents, but I don’t see anything that would put it back to the way it was. Is this normal as you level up?
Yes on patch it got moved back to being a ST only ability and had it’s AoE application attached to cleave if you have both talented. This was done to make it more passively applied in AoE.
Imo this was a mistake personally. Having that keybind break was refreshing in the rotation that was already cleave heavy, all they’ve done is make cleave a defacto talent in every single build aa it has a higher direct dmg conversion of dpr (dmg per rage) than rend itself. I’d expect some tuning here if blizzard was smart about it, but knowing their track record I definitely won’t be holding my breath.
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Aww that’s too bad. It was nice and convenient the way they had it for questing.
Well at the very least you’re somewhat at the level where you can change your talents around to pickup the rend aoe application on cleave.
Something like this would give back what you had access to. This also allows for you to want to pull mobs 3 at a time to boost those automatic fervor of battle slams on your main target when cleave hits 3 or more enemies that can also be sweeped and you’ll melt practically anything you come across.
https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warrior/arms/colossus/EAJARUVREBAEAGVUVVABBAAA
I just don’t get why at this point they didn’t simply choice-node Rend between auto-application for some tiny bit more relative uptime vs. a manual Rend that can better exploit the last GCD before a disengagement.
Tbf there’s a lot wrong with how they handled it.
Rend as a ST ability is useless in any point where you spec Cleave (hey look all builds suggest speccing it currently on guides).
Before 12.1 it’s direct dmg was a 20 rage cost 259.248% AP on a 6s CD to being obliterated to a 10 rage cost 124.581% AP no CD ST only so they kept the DPR similar however they didn’t account for the fact that it would be ridiculously outclassed by Cleave’s DPR (dmg per rage) and DPC (dmg per cast) as Cleave has it’s direct dmg benefitting from multiple Class/Spec talents you take by default in a build ontop of additional mods from our Apex talents and Hero Talents.
That’s not even mentioning the problems arising where ST rend takes up a valuable sweeping strikes charge in 2 target while cleave does not.
The only beneficial point it has over Cleave is being able to proc our Apex talent, even then Cleave’s probably better as Rend’s previous niche of being an ability you would hit to not double up on an existing HS proc is gone so Cleave takes that role.
I can see them maybe reworking this somewhat for the 12.1.5 patch as there’s definitely a little degeneracy going on in the base gameplay loop now that wasn’t present prior to the 12.1 changes despite how many are saying Slayer feels good now on these forums lately, I honestly think they’re just blinded by a chance of being ‘meta’ and don’t see how it’s sort of not been thought out properly.
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Aye. To be clear, I meant even if they had gotten the present application method sorted. I just don’t get the idea of forcing it in ST only for a Cleave-less pure ST build while it remains irrelevant to AoE.
Granted, I also really do not like Slayer being fully forced into Bloodletting now for it nigh-baselining a 5% crit bonus.
Just like… why? Why was that necessary? If they just needed a raw Arms buff, why not just aura-buff instead of forcing a previously variable capstone choice?
- Meanwhile, Sweeping Strikes as an infinite duration ammo-reload, so to speak, just feels stupid as hell still, but that’s out of scope.
Yeah I figured, it definitely feels off to have an ability’s namesake come from another ability entirely when it was perfectly fine before.
Also odd how the manual applications moved to 4 times a minute vs 3 with their bloodletting change.
Was always a talent you took in both builds in our previous spec tree. However changing it to be a flat 5% crit maint bonus is definitely strange.
This one I’m not too fussed over, gameplay beforehand had us casting sweeping strikes once inbetween every CS window and now we press it before every CS window. I enjoyed it, even had made a little ArcUI bar for every single build that fit perfectly alongside my essential CDs tracker that shows me 12 notches so I knew exactly the right moment to reapply my SS between CS casts.
Post change adjusting to the new cast priority still enables what ~90% uptime of sweeping strikes whenever there’s 2+ targets present. At this point yeah they could go the route of making it entirely passive and have it by default that your ST attacks always attack a secondary target and all it would remove is that one press of sweeping strikes, but in the same vein them doing that would also kill off some of the interactions that are left in the spec that give it a unique feel as opposed to say Fury that is forced to hit TC/WW every 5th GCD to maintain their cleave uptime.
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Usually but not always. And if not for the 5% crit, it would have become far more optional for all but pure ST since the former 10% bleed crit and, effectively, just 2 extra seconds of Deep Wounds, would have been just low enough in value to opt out for situational builds (Delves, PvP, etc.). Which seems like what near-core but non-obligatory talents should aim their tuning at.
I don’t mind the to CS stack counts. I’m just speaking on how I can hit CS 18s (pre-Haste) before combat to be able to use all go, even with the change, some 30 swings in a row, as if readying my stance even up to some hours earlier should impact my swings even hours later. (Not to mention the anti-synergy with Haste.) It just feels fundamentally… odd.
Slayer is not Cleave heavy, and it actually cycles through a bunch of buttons. Condensing one of them down was a good move, even Slam ends up getting used at some points.
To give Rend a purpose beyond a very paltry amount of damage. Previously, it was a maintenance debuff with such a low priority that you didn’t care to keep a high uptime on it anyway - now it has a synergy with the rest of the rotation.
You’re taking it literal again on one aspect rather than the whole comment that covers that Rend USED to be a break in the rotation. Now it is no longer there as an additional use and it’s applied by Cleave something you’re hitting practically on cooldown either way in AoE unless you’re overloaded with SD procs. Even if you’re not hitting Cleave on CD you’re hitting it one GCD after it’s available at max stacks of Collateral Damage which is still every 4.5-6s (2 stack-3stack). Rend used to be a breaker in the rotation every ~18s.
Rend was also a fantastic button to utilise when you wanted to smuggle a Heroic Strike and delay it by a GCD in ST and AoE which sometimes bought you time to get that last bit of CDR for a CS window to have a higher dmg event out of it. Now? Yeah no chance of smuggling a HS proc without risking to overcap it unless you avoid pressing buttons entirely in both situations. This leads to less caveats of players being able to distinguish themselves in an already simplified gameplay loop.
Yes Slayer cycles between Cleave, OP and Execute most often and then Slam with the 4p however pending keybind allocation this can make things extremely one sided and ruin the flow of gameplay compared to what we had enjoyed during MN’s S1 which flowed somewhat nicer with the additional keybind required.
Even though we hit Rend 3 times per minute beforehand and that 3 CPM has been redistributed elsewhere between other abilities it still feels bad. Mind you the cadence of which you’re slamming SD procs is also borderline degenerate due to the increased proc rate of slaying strikes alongside the forced SD proc on CS cast. Would not be surprised in the slightest if they reduce Slaying Strikes back to 15% proc rate instead of 25% in the upcoming weeks of tuning amongst other changes.
By all means it’s a positive to the lower skill portion of the playerbase but as an actual gameplay element? With all due respect you’re off your rocker if you think it’s actually a good change to make the baseline ability useless when it was more than fine the way it was beforehand.
Rend doesn’t even have value in 1 or 2 target moments as on ST it’s outclassed by Cleave on DPR due to other talents you pickup along the way make it a better ability numerically by default and then on 2 target why would you bother pressing Rend itself when it’s going to soak up a precious Sweeping Strikes charge when you can just press Cleave instead and do over double it’s damage to both targets while also applying Rend’s debuff.
At this point they would’ve been much better off with a proper rework making Rend Arms exclusive as an AoE attack that also auto applied a stack of deep wounds as an uncapped AoE driver and remove it as a maintenance bleed entirely as it no longer has any maintenance at all to it in AoE as it is kept up passively and overwritten without a single care in the world. This half baked nonsense aint it.
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The “whole comment” was three sentences, bud. I quoted what you said and responded.
The thing that made Cleave spammy before was Collateral Combo, a talent which Slayer doesn’t use anymore. Now, Execute gets used as much as Cleave and Overpower is not far behind. I’m sure you’ll find a way to complain about that too though. (Edit: yup…)
I don’t know what this is, but it’s not a thing. Slam should already be on your bars anyway, but it’s not a priority button even with 4p.
Actually Rend is better DPR, Cleave is better DPET and has some unique trigger interactions that Rend doesn’t. The main reason Slayer takes it is just because the other remaining talents available are not particularly good.
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I’m aware Slayer doesn’t use Crushing Combo anymore. However like I said the forced SD proc is great on CS casts as a driver to give Slayer something unique over Colossus in AoE situations, but the influx of Sudden Death procs from Slaying strike’s increasing in frequency is a problem where it forces the gameplay we had where we would be pressing different abilities every GCD to one where it’s very Casino like in essence as plenty off moments now you’ve just changed the ability that’s being pressed 2-3 times in a row from Cleave to Execute as soon as you hit that CS window as you’re very likely to almost overflow on SD procs at any given moment especially if you already enter a CS window with one SD proc banked up.
Mind you Crushing Combo’s gameplay was fine, never did I mention I that Cleave should have less weight in AoE. The problems I have with it effectively replacing rend is the ability flow change between these two patches.
God forbid anyone has a differing opinion and isn’t happy when adjustments aren’t well thought out and lead to a drop in skill expression within the spec.
If they wanted to make Rend passive entirely they should’ve gone the whole hog rather than leave it half baked.
So you don’t understand something written and say it’s not a thing so which it it? I didn’t say “Slam isn’t keybound” but that’s what you assumed, nor did I say that it was a priority ability either which was once again your assumption. You could’ve asked “what did you mean by this?” and I would’ve answered the following.
Keybind Allocation, the process in which one allocates their abilities to specific keys on their keyboard. Now logically keybinding follows a similar pattern based on personal preferences however it’s usually done in a systematic manner keeping abilities that function similarly close to each other (ST vs AoE).
Say for example your keybinding set-up is as follows all in a row all utilising your left hand.
MS 1, OP 2, Slam 3, Execute 4, Cleave 5, Rend `
Given Rend’s function no longer matters the main keys pressed in AoE will devolve into 2, 4 and 5 with 4 and 5 being the most pressed buttons with 2 breaking them up inbetween when we’re focusing in priority funnel damage within a M+ keystone as opposed to overall padding. Prior to this consolidation I would have more of an even flow between abilities and breaks inbetween them as Colossus prioritised MS as well so outside of a CS window gameplay was variable in which abilities were pressed every GCD.
As mentioned earlier, the frequency of Sudden Deaths for Slayer becomes a problem from a gameplay perspective as it overtakes GCDs that you would otherwise fill in with another ability and pushes out abilities like MS from the rotation in AoE where it would be pressed for funnel/focused damage when other abilities aren’t available therefore reducing the range of motion of abilities pressed within a given period of time leading to an entirely different gameplay experience no matter where you’ve keybound your abilities things are going to feel heavy handed in one direction.
Mind you I’ve already fixed my own issues with this by placing a second keybind of Cleave over my original Rend bind in all builds to keep things in line with muscle memory and feel in ST situations. But that still doesn’t stop me from noticing that Rend as an ability being useless to apply it’s own debuff as nothing short of degenerate.
Pray tell me how? Yes if you account for the DoT portion you get weighting towards Rend however if look at direct dmg only which I mentioned earlier in this thread and we cancel out the dot effect on both as it would be silly to leave that in as it’s a secondary effect on both that gives you a false impression when you’re looking at how much dmg you’re squeezing out of every GCD.
So with me outlining my thought process on the matter we’re left with the following.
Rend 124.581% + 190.465% / 10 = 12.4581
Cleave 232.481*1.1(Barbaric Training)*1.1(Sharpened Blades) = 281.30201
281.30201 / 20 = 14.0651
So this means that Cleave’s direct dmg DPR (once you’ve picked up talents) at a baseline is better than Rend’s. You can call it DPET if it’s from other effects not present at a baseline but the fact that baseline is higher means that it’s direct dmg DPR is still higher on Cleave.
I’m not even accounting for anything that’s a variable after the fact of additional crit dmg% that effects Cleave but doesn’t effect Rend on BT and SB while also not even accounting for the variable of the Apex talent increasing Cleave’s direct dmg by a further 5/10/15/20% etc at times pending how high your apex talent is stacked.
So realistically we’ve come to the exact same conclusions regarding Cleave vs Rend but we’re calling it different things. Direct Dmg DPR / DPET w/e it’s all semantics.
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Because it’s not a real term. It’s not even contextually sensical, since you’re actually allocating keybinds. Even then, it’s still not a real term, much less a common one. It would be a lot easier to just explain what you want to say in the first place, instead of truncating or creating your own lingo, then spending 7-18 paragraphs going on a rambling half-formulated follow-up.
- Obviously I still understood what you meant, because I pointed out that Slam is keybound and its function does not change with the tier, so there is no reason to change it… which you also seem to agree with, since despite specifically citing “Slam with the 4p,” your entire rambling dissertation on the subject doesn’t refer to it at all.
As for your hyper fixation on Rend, it’s not rocket surgery - either use the game’s built-in action bar profiles to automatically swap or just make a macro that switches between Cleave and Rend based on your talents.
I stated clearly my intent and followed up with context to avoid confusion because it’s not a term one would know if they’re not in the correct circles.
You misinterpreted it like you’re want to do. No biggy we’ve been through this rodeo before, so I followed up with different wording for you to be able to understand the context rather than inferring your own into it, which ended up being the exact opposite and you trying to ‘save face’ after the fact.
If you’re not familiar with something you ask for further clarification not state “that’s not a thing”. Welcome to dealing with people in different countries and different education levels, if you don’t understand ask for clarification.
As for my writing? Yeah I’ll explain each point thoroughly to avoid confusion especially when it’s already been misconstrued and twisted into something that was not even said in the first place. Nothing cheeses me off more than something simple being made out into something it is not over a misunderstanding and no genuine attempt to get to a middle ground of understanding.
Mind you I’ll also break apart every other sentence so it’s an easier read rather than it being a block of text. If you would like next time I’ll happily oblige with zero formatting.
This has got to be the most disingenous ragebait from your end mate.
Legitimately where did you even pull this out from that you thought that was a valid thing to even write? Did I say I had a problem moving around Cleave/Rend’s keybinds based on builds? No.
I stated clearly the problem with this is the flow of ability presses between abilities feels off ever since merging Rend into Cleave and it no longer giving the break in gameplay that it did prior to this patch.
I even stated exactly what I did to overcome my own concerns about it.
I can also see there being a glaring issue of Rend itself being useless to have on your bars in the first place which is a problem that should be rectified. We’re back to the exact same problem with Rend before Midnight made it an AoE attack by default except we don’t get more throughput by using the ST variant on low targets so it’s worse.
Wouldn’t be surprised at all if there was a further readjustment to Rend and it’s function for Arms and Warrior as a whole when Arms is properly looked at for it’s gameplay.
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And yet you still haven’t mentioned where this issue with “Slam with the 4p however pending keybind allocation” comes in.
Really though, you made up a (obviously miscontextualized) term to sound smart and now you’re rambling again to try to defend it like something from the hall of fame of /r/iamverysmart.
It’s the same issue you cited and corrected in the same exact manner. If you have Cleave talented, you press Cleave, if you don’t have Cleave talented, you press Rend.
Don’t worry, I don’t blame you for not being able to keep up with your own inane ramblings either.
No you obtuse know it all.
The keybind I had set for Rend has had Cleave added to it and the Original Cleave/WW keybind stays as it is fulltime as currently it’s of no use at all to bind rend itself so Cleave is now sitting in two places fulltime.
Until they buff rend to a point where it’s actually used like it should be in 1-2 targets the ability itself is left in a degenerate unused state.
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If you are still leveling or doing world quests, don’t bother with Rend. If things don’t live for the full duration of the effect, then it’s not worth pressing. Things die so fast while leveling or doing open world content that you will only get a one or two ticks of damage out it. You are better off pressing literally anything else.
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So you combined Rend and Cleave, just like I said? Got it.
Or until you spec Colossus. The only reason Slayer uses Cleave in single target is because there’s literally no other talent left worth taking. It’s less than a 0.1% increase and you’re rambling as if it’s the greatest piece of mistuning since we stopped pressing Overpower.
It’s really not that deep.
Not a chance in hell with current tuning for raid ST. Even in a M+ build where Colossus might have a chance of being played if it gets some buffs thrown their way you’re already specced into Cleave so you’re gonna Cleave instead in every single situation unless Rend’s direct dmg portion is buffed.
So we can’t point out a currently newly added degenerate contradiction in the spec’s ability priority without your approval and only if it’s been at a higher detriment to a previously degenerate interaction within the spec that was fixed years ago? Good to know.
Then why do you seem like you’re taking personal offense to me pointing out it being bad design that an ability is made redundant? Minimise all you one mate, but feel free to have to have the last word. Also keep your snide remarks to yourself, if you’re wondering why the tone changed post your 2nd post in this thread.