I like how you just make up my half of the conversation and then respond to it. Almost keeps me from having to be here.
Although acting in good faith, just because you say it’s degenerate doesn’t mean it is. You don’t like it, that’s fine, doesn’t mean there’s anything particularly wrong with it. Plenty of spells get directly or indirectly replaced by other abilities under certain situations. Cleave’s only miss is that it’s ever so slightly better than Rend if you can afford to spend the talent point.
Buddy, I wrote two sentences offering a minor correction to your statement, and you’ve turned it into 67 paragraphs of rambling babble and indignation. I’m not the one taking personal offense here.
Sure this wasn’t all you then? ramping up as the thread went on.
ridiculous comment when what you misunderstood being reworded so you could understand.
Just kidding, you didn’t get it again after it was reworded.
Weird comment.
Weird ramble from your end there too when threw a fit about someone describing something differently regarding the term of “keybind allocation” where it’s how one has allocated their keybinds on their keyboard to play the game accordingly. By all means not all of us use reddit as much as you do.
Another comment of yours from a disingenuous angle.
I wish you all the best, but champ you need some assistance with those interpersonal skills you’re too used to being surrounded by yes men.
That wasn’t the term you used by the way. That was the corrected term I suggested.
It’s also still made up.
Just want to point out that your very first response was denigrating me for taking the three sentences you wrote “too literally” instead of “the whole comment” (which was again, three sentences)… which apparently took another 7 paragraphs to explain that your real issue is a loss of skill expression.
Your next response went on a tirade about your made up terminology, and yet you still haven’t explained what “Slam with the 4p however pending keybind allocation” (the part I actually commented on) has to do with anything - you just went right back to talking about your issues with Cleave replacing Rend.
You get hostile with everyone who even remotely questions the things you say, and then you pour paragraph after paragraph of rambling, often nonsensical, information overload in an attempt to browbeat the conversation into submission. But sure, continue villainizing me if it makes you feel better.
Oh you suggested this now? At least get your story straight.
This was my post explaining it to you the first time, which oh you guessed it had the words Keybind and allocation b2b.
You misconstrued it as something more than it was other than the way keybinds are allocated on the keyboard. Would you have preferred Keybind Set-up instead?
The explanation is right there in plain English.
Dumbing it down would be, buttons felt better before, now buttons feel bad because button order feel weird now.
Yes because I’m aware of how you are from previous interactions with you.
So I figured I’d cover my bases to avoid confusion since you also seem like a Smart fella I figured I’d write out my thought process and the reasoning behind why I said what i said. But what good has that done for us here?
No hostility at all here brother, I’m just someone who enjoys a conversation and hates when people are disingenuous during one.
What it’s all of a sudden a crime to know how to write in proper formatting on these forums? Is the education system that bad over there?
I didn’t misconstrue anything, as I have repeatedly clarified. You said “Yes Slayer cycles between Cleave, OP and Execute most often and then Slam with the 4p however pending keybind allocation”:
And the reason I responded “that’s not a thing” is because all of these buttons were already keybound, so there is no issue of allocation (at best, it sounds like your actual issue is one of variety/frequency, but that’s a deeply personal issue that will never be consistent from player to player).
That aside, the important part of the comment was that Slam with the 4p is not a factor. You won’t see it anywhere in the APL, and Slam is still used as a bottom-of-priority filler, just as it was in Season 1.
The slam component came from replying to your comment of the following where you misunderstood what i wrote in the very first post regarding Rend’s S1 variation being a nice keybind break from Arms being Cleave heavy (in S1) and the S2 changes being counter to what their original reasoning was to make Arms less cleave heavy through buffing Dreadnaught and removing the break that Rend provided in S1 in the process.
Which then came to mind that Slam’s use also has an AoE use case, which is what i figured you were trying to get at.
Quite genuinely a misunderstanding on your end from the get go that lead to an explanation of what i meant that lead to further confusion. If that makes things clearer it’s misunderstandings all round on both sides.
I didn’t misunderstand it. What I said was that Slayer Arms is not nearly as Cleave heavy as it was in Season 1 and you ran away with it. I didn’t comment on what you find to be “a nice break” because that’s very personal to you: same way some people don’t like using Cleave 3x in a row with Crushing Combo, some do.
I was not. Slam already had a use case in Season 1 and it has the same use case in Season 2. The fact that it does a small amount of extra AoE does not factor (as I pointed out in that second comment). My statement, which you truncated here, was that Arms actually does cycle through most of its buttons.
You’re right mate, you didn’t misunderstand a thing and I didn’t need to explain a thing to avoid my words being twisted into a different meaning entirely from what was written. Enjoy your day.
What you didn’t need to do is start acting pissy and hostile over deigning to explain your intent in the first place.
You wrote a three sentence statement about Rend providing a break in a Cleave heavy rotation.
I responded with two sentences saying the rotation isn’t as Cleave heavy anymore.
You then spent 7 paragraphs, leading off with an insult, for not recognizing your actual point was about the “skill expression” lost from no longer pressing Rend, how Sudden Death was overbearing, and nine other things.
Doing it in a pissy and hostile way is being pissy and hostile. You can have all the gripes you want, just don’t take them out on me when you failed to cite them in the first place.
That’s just a matter of circumstance. There’s nothing inherently wrong with Cleave being stronger DPR/DPE/DPET/or any other combination of letters than Rend, because there’s an opportunity cost in spending an extra talent point on it.
The real issue is that Slayer just ran out of useful talents to put that remaining point into, which is more a criticism of how uncompetitive Efficiency, Brute Force, Overpowering Finish, and Master Tactician are.
Even then, the value of single target Cleave is very small, which implies that there wasn’t an express intent for players to spec into single target Cleave - it’s just a happy little accident that is certain to get corrected sooner or later.
I am aware, regardless how big/small of a gain it is. It is still very much an unintended consequence of the 12.1.0 changes to Arms.
I also mentioned that it would be something they would be likely to change but doubtful that it will be anytime soon so i wasn’t going to hold my breath for it. Gut feel is it’s more likely to be looked at for the 12.1.5 patch or later.
When Cleave was used in ST during early S1 by Colossus in keys it was removed from Mortal Wounds as a result and Slam was added to it however their intent for Cleave to be an AoE driver for Rend makes me believe that we’re left with this interaction for a touch longer if it’s even on their radar to begin with, it’ll definitely be once the M+ season is underway.
Cleave was only used in single target with Ravager and it was fairly niche, since Ravager was much better saved for any new pack of mobs pulled within the next 90 seconds.
Its removal from Mortal Wounds had absolutely nothing to do with that though, the intent of the change was simply to reduce it’s inordinately high value in AoE - it was something like +13%, which just wildly outclassed every other talent on the tree.
Same reason they were going to change Storm Surge in the same patch, though they ended up leaving it due to being unable to reconcile the effect it would have on Prot’s gameplay.
I don’t believe there’s anything to suggest that was ever the distinct purpose of the ability.
Yes, they could have just made it deal more damage, and Colossus already does this (to a degree) through its own bleed amps, but you also can’t make every ability deal a competitively high amount of damage without taking away elsewhere. The last time bleeds made up a significant amount of Arms’ damage, players just about rioted, so it’s not too hard to believe they decided to go with an effect rather than direct damage in order to enforce its use without detracting from other abilities.
Was there anything to suggest that a bleed should act more as a crit buff than as a bleed?
What matters is what generates compelling use from whatever additional lever / point of control something adds in fit with its components and classification.
In the same way it makes little sense for Sunder Armor to be an AP buff —thereby equally affecting Ignore Pain and skills that already bypassed Armor— or just a direct damage nuke, it makes little sense for the primary purpose advantaged by any given CD-less bleed (a soft-CD with innately an advantage in relative uptime and the ability to get off an extra worthwhile cast before disengage as long as the remaining duration is under some % of max)… to be changed to have nothing to do with a bleed and even gut the innate advantage a bleed would naturally otherwise offer.
There was no implication to the contrary. Take that damage from Slam and Auto-attacks if need be.
The only constraint on making Rend worthwhile in a manner not cross-purpose with itself would be in perhaps being stronger in 2-3 targets (where the crit buff scaling would otherwise be diminished after the 1st, or after the 2nd under Sweeping Strikes) to the point of obliging multi-DoTing where the crit-amp-Rend would not, but Cleave applies Rend to everything all at once anyways, so it’d have no potential “degenerative” impact on our rotation anyways.
The last time bleeds made up a significant amount of Arms’ damage, their damage contribution through damage amplification often exceeded that of the bleed itself anyways, so how does that warrant wasting the functionality otherwise innate to a no-CD but 15s bleed in favor of a damage amp?
Which makes no sense when the whole point of adding an ability is for the ability to be used, to have presence, to have play among those other skills, not just to be arbitrarily crammed in but as meekly/apologetically as possible.
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