Not everyone has as much stam as Warrior, DK, Lock. Even with my 5% stam talent I don’t think I will get to one million. Wearing 5 honor items everything else conq or epic hellbloom and I’m just under 900k, without the talent I’d be at around 856K and likely top out just over 900k.
Other classes might top out at 900K (ish) while others hit 1.1 to 1.2 million. Some specs are at a 20%+ stam deficit over specs with talent amps.
Na people are stupid and don’t use cc/peel/defensives properly. If people want to go into arena/solo and pve their faces off they should lose, if you lose to that because your team responded in kind you deserve to after a point.
That one is being intellectually dishonest, Clawing hitting that hard is Rotten Touch+UF+Frenzied Monstrosity+Morbidity+Reaping. Ele sham and nearly any other spec does same damage when they have every modifier up. Irony because Ele is the FDK of casters and has far more ‘one shots’ to its credit than unholy. Double irony b/c its clearly a l2p issue from the data you posted.
Don’t expect logic and reason to have any effect on the winging beta male squad who has their feelings hurt b/c they have to try a little harder or play a little smarter. They want their narrative and won’t deviate.
Warlock (all 3)= Havoc DH.
Boomkin=Sub rogue
Ele=FDK that doesn’t suck.
Mages, as per are their own thing.
It’s not chicken and egg. CC was nerfed because healers were complaining that targets die while they sit in it. But the reality is healers were “suddenly” having a harder time because the game became faster, and damage+mobility are imbalanced and oversaturated more with each un/pruning and “rework” designed for the zoomfast that is PvE mash since Mythic+. WoD was the turning point to collapse, and Legion started the fall into the abyss we are in now. I think it’s ironic, because the “crisp” and reactive gameplay is what makes modern WoW PvP fun, skillful, and unique… but it’s over the top now for most players. Just like with the balancing, I think all the issues we have are because PvP tuning is often not even taken into consideration. Outdated systems and apathic managing making everything ironically clunkier as time goes on.
The irony here is it wasn’t melee cc that was the issue, it was locks/boomy/mage with long kicks, poly, clone and fear. I say that because those three schools specifically prevent heals from using one of several ‘get out of jail free’ cards.
Every healer has cc breaks, things they can use in stuns, some form of aura mastery and immunity frames or damn near. Massive L2P issues shouldn’t be solved by kneecapping everyone else.
I have sympathy for healers having issues with CR/MMR in solo. That’s a raw deal straight up. OTW unless we’re talking about Prez/R sham (rsham still good in the right comp just really limited) I have zero sympathy b/c of how training wheels healers are.
One (holy priest) even has self rez in arena. I remember when DK could do that and people lost their minds, heals get it and not a peep. Just saying bro, healers have never been stronger on paper, and the playerbase has never been worse in practice. You can’t balance damage to zero to account for people that straight up don’t know or want to know how to play, just whine till maybe damage gets nerfed.
My bloody 1400 games are going to 60% damp minimum. TF are you all doing?
How… they haven’t changed in nearly a decade…
It’s just not true. Some people who know the mechanical side needs to take a very deep look at this from the inside. It’s an issue that built up over time. It’s not Old God magic.
Edit: Why are people coming back to classic PvP, then?
Usually, changing a game fundamentally deters a large part of its regular playerbase.
The devs creating a situation where heals were immortal for years with massive training wheels via nerfed damage and numerous auto proc defensives (WoD to SL) was in fact the issue. This really is L2P for anything not Prez evoker, and even then I’m not totally convinced they’re bad it may be that the skill cap is so bloody high no one can make it look good.
It’s a lot more fast paced, the classes are more fun and deeper because you have a ton of utility.
Personally I hate that we go through a stat squish every expac and end up with super bloated hp pools by last season every expac. Everyone going to be near or at 1m hp. Hitting 1-200k into that is 10-20% of someone’s hp, prior to effective hp granted by personal defensives and externals.
O…kay. You’re saying Classic is faster than Retail.
I still disagree, I think the post-un/prunings meta just slowly became WoW on ster01ds. 
I’m not saying we need to reduce difficulty for newer players… but we need to double down on what made WoW PvP unique: CCs, DRs, CDs, positioning, communication… Most of which barely matter in the zergfest that is currently promoted esp. in Shuffle…
I will insist the issue is as I described it, and it’s getting worse with each xpak.
I also agree that stats are out of whack – maybe that’s just the issue. Why do we need so much Haste and Vers… Maybe just making vers a 1/.75 ratio will go a long way towards fixing the issue. Dampening can stay.
Gona stop you right there, none of the regular things apply to shuffle aside from positioning and basic ability usage. The game wasn’t designed around shuffle and it really shows. That is a horrible metric to use, the only reason I did earlier was to point out that if you rotate abilities and position you can negate a lot of damage. No hate but a lot of issues people describe in relation to balance are a result of mistakes made in arena.
Like I can stop a DH/Sub Rogue/DK with a well placed fear and have UNO Reverse ready if I can get my fear right and send them line of heals with damage and stun/silence. Not only that I prevent a swap to my team, and waste their cds unless they want to trinket in which case they can die behind a pillar if they’re clean on stun dr.
The stats I agree on, self healing becomes obnoxious and it goes against what the devs wanted to do which was reign in bloated stat pools.
You’re not wrong at all, but I still think we have gigantic and profounds levels of not just damage but toolkit imbalances that instead of serving a rock/paper/scissors skillful and adaptive gameplay, just make it so that whichever happens to be FoTM will be steamrolling over the archetypes they most easily counter because of the shear numbers and their ease of access to every part of the map, or counter to more mechanics.
As for accessibility, I also agree it’s a major issue… the prunings and simplification, and Shuffle, allegedly made for an easier jump into arena. Comparing WoW to the other big MMOs, I’ve seen discussions on whether we have too many utility abilities and not enough rotational buttons… We have less abilities than MoP, but faster gameplay where they hit harder and casting is seemingly harder in many cases. DF tried to be a new MoP, but now some classes have significantly more answers to various situations than others… I think the key examples are Rets in 10.1.5 with their utility “rework” uber-buff, and DH damage in the last 2 weeks or Feral yesterday just oneshotting because of unmitigated PvE tuning or bugs.
Not sure about this one… Most classes have around 30 basic binds not factoring in targeting modifiers.
They unpruned us. My Ret has around 30 basic binds or so, not counting things like mount, redemption ect could get closer to 35 or so. Some specs have 40+.
Your’e actually right. What I should have written there is “DF is the new MoP” in the sense that we are finally unpruned, but it doesn’t feel like classes are as all-rounded, balanced and jacks-of-all-trades as MoP was so famous for. I think counters are more apparent nowadays, and balancing makes for more radical power swings, hence the “ranged/melee meta” where some specs quit entirely or healers are complaining about having to hide or eat CC.
I agree insofar as automatic defensives and free extra damage goes, those were things that were really curtailed in the old game or didn’t exist.
Maybe but maybe not either, I had a lot of binds in mop on DK/warlock/pally/ww monk/spriest. I’m not sure the game play is faster either; I could take someone 100-0 on a sub Rogue or my DK or my Lock in a stun. If I had done my proper prep the target was dead 2s into said stun. We also had a lot more offensive purges in the game then though, DK, Priest, Shaman, Mages could all clean a buff/hot bar.
I’m bias because I started Ret in BC (droppped it in SL) and was there for the OG Wrath launch. DF ret post rework was a bad joke next to that. No hate but you could literally one tap someone with proper seal/judgement with no cds.
No hate but I think we need to be specific here. Counters are supposed to exist, and I’m confused as to what can’t be countered. Ret/War are super hard to stop but not so much if you have a mage for example. There are things I can do on my Rogue/DK to slow them down and try and get poor defensive use so I can set up for a kill with clean Dr. Same as my DK, same as my Spriest.
Where or what do you think (not feel) is not able to be countered? Every class has a good amount of cc and purges or off heals, externals, MS. Healers have AM, abilities that can be used through stuns, abilities that make them immune to cc/damage, and most can set up a kill with cross cc by themselves, esp in solo. Not to mention multiple charges of a Wall.
As someone who has basically been spamming about this, it would be extremely hypothetical of me had I refused to delve into specifics. I am by no means the best, most experienced player out there, but as a caster DPS this season I think double melee esp. in Solo can be particularly painful due to uptime and output, specially if a DH and warrior are involved. UHDK would be up there as well, with the occasional Rogue or WW oneshot. I also think the pet classes, so BM and Demo are a bit oppressive because there are MANY pets on the field, of different damage types, that can even CC you or chase you behind a pillar. In one incident I was casting a heal on myself behind the pillar at low HP and the pets chased me and finished me off despite me having rooted them just before, popped a defensive and the healer definitely tried to help… My lock friend who is higher exp than me this xpak has echoed the same sentiments of frustration about basically anything instant cast being a tad bit too powerful and casting being riskier and harder than in the past.
With all that being said - this is more than likely a much bigger issue in Shuffle… The fact is me and him have been much more successful at competing with the meta comps in organized 3’s. We play seldom, and not at any high rating, so I definitely think that the lack of communication and organization in shuffle has a lot to do with the carry-or-be-squashed potential of ‘meta PvE mashing’… Overall, I’ve had an easier time surviving and pulling off my setups as Boomy in the past two seasons, though, that’s for certain. I’m not asking to be the best spec by any means, but I often plead for more survivability or just a tad bit slower meta so that casting and positioning might be slightly more forgiving. Again, this is not to try and derail the game’s difficulty, but to make it simply possible in some cases that are just lost causes right now. A huge L2P argument can be made against many of my claims, and that always plays a big role, but the fact that Healers are complaining and quitting so much I think says much more about these issues than I could. Enter then the vicious cycle of long queues and sitting in LFG.
Regardless, I play mostly for fun, and have no doubt that build optimization, gearing, better positioning, CD management and just playing and practicing more will go a long way. I hope things will keep balancing out as the weeks roll on. I’d also love to see more healer incentivization… but it seems we might have to wait til next expansion to see any big system changes, and by then who knows what the participation will look like between BGB and the other brackets. For the same IRL reasons I’ve been focusing on RSS in DF, but am admittedly more of an RBG player who only started focusing on arenas lately, I’m aiming to dabble in a healthy mix of both Solo worlds in the future (and ofc look for teams as much as I am able) 
Agreed, it’s useless to argue with simpletons like Remi where the argument is ‘lost to class X, X is OP’.
It’s wild how bad reasoning skills are even with available data for some people.
i just linked you a screen shot of every global coming out of the dk being 200k
that’s not an “anecdotal reeee” LMAO
representation and w/l doesn’t mean anything, you cant balance the game around how bad the average player is at utilizing broken mechanics
the game is balanced around how each class performs at it’s ceiling
yep, Dh/uhdk/Demo need nerfs
I can post any screenshot of classes doing worldbeater damage when not walling someone is bursting.
Below is what should look like when people press walls like they should.
imgur com/a/jzIcNQd
I set to 2100+ when providing you the data, I’ve mentioned that before but you clearly can’t read.
Only thing that should matter is your anecdotal scenarios and your opinions. You can quit your REEEE talk.
2100 in solo shuffle right now is probably the worst possible place to farm data from
anyone who played last season started with higher than 2100 mmr and queues are hours long so the majority of people really playing it that much are the people that cant get actual 3s because they’re not desirable partners
2100 in shuffle right now is the worst players putting up 100+ hours to 50/50 their free mmr and you’re trying to tell me the data from those players should be what determines how strong unholy is?
so when you go into any other bracket and queue into an unholy dk that isn’t awful that does just lob out 200k globals and kill thru walls it’s fine because the average gkdl tier duelist doesnt?
you have legitimate data you’re just too far detached from the ladder to understand how pointless it is at this point in the season
I’ve also linked burst data, but I keep forgetting that you can’t read.
I don’t expect you to be able to set the filter to ‘3v3’ with your comprehension level, but that is also an available option.
representation is a terrible way to determine a classes viability/strength most of the time
right now above 2100 dh and dk are tied doubling to quadrupling every other dps spec
THIS is an indicator that both specs are probably dramatically overtuned
though in general specs like feral or enhancement even in seasons when comps like jungle and turbo are S tier still have extremely poor representation