Upcoming buffs and nerfs:

PVP Arenas
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Small data analysis lesson for you since you clearly didn’t receive any relevant education.

You would also require other numbers such as number of players playing those classes, segmented winrates, median ratings, etc.

With those numbers, you can run something like regression to determine the correlation between different factors and how well a class is doing.

I don’t expect you to understand any of these, but that’s how you would do it. But we are making progress now since you are posting somewhat relevant information now instead of anecdotal stories.

One day you’ll get there, don’t work your brain too hard today.

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83

Right, cause the players of any given class in the top 500 or top 1000 are not playing near the ceiling? If they are not, who is?

W/L means nothing? This is a joke right? If a class is mega buffed those specs don’t start wining more games (lose less games) than they did prior to the buff? And… you know… (1) go up in rating (2) climb the ladder (3) gain more rep. Wouldn’t happen?

In terms of rep you are talking about the top 200 players of given spec if not less than a dozen players per spec for an entire continent. They are playing the class at as “high a level” as any other person on earth minus a few dozen AWC players, AWC players are in those stats BTW.

Rep does mean something. It shows how the breakdown of the best players of each class are doing relative to the other classes. The representation is a rough idea of how powerful each class is.

Just a coincidence that after 07 Ret went to 35% of melee, or after 10.2 DH surpasses 50% of melee. Now 38/43% N/A-EU down from 50%/60%. Why the drop for DH in the last 9 days? Might have something to do with the roughly 15-20% overall damage nurf. DH went from towering over every other spec to now being head and shoulders above every other spec. Class less powerful in relation to all other specs now has less rep. Another coincidence?

I’d also like to note that both regions saw about the same number of DH fall out of the top after the nurf. Roughly 24% of DH in NA and 28% in EU fell out of the top. Demonstrating that rep is a direct link to class power as the effect of the nurf had roughly the same effect in both regions with 1 in 4 DH falling off…

If Rep really meant nothing, if classes didn’t gain rep at the top of the ladder based on how strong they are relative to everyone else this wouldn’t have happened. It did happen, it happened in the past, it will happen in the future.

It will always happen because rep is and always has been a good indicator of the strength of a class.

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84

It has never been a good indicator of the strength of a class and it never will be because class popularity has a variety of factors that don’t always correlate to strength

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Yup. There might be a couple exceptions but whatever is good will have high rep

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the point you’re missing is that the players like you setting aside the time to 50/50 out the free mmr from last season in solo shuffle better players are not will never be a good metric for how a class is performing

qing into an actual dks and using that experience vs charts on male elf dks with 100 shuffle games played week 1 will always be better data

exactly this

there’s plenty of good examples as to why representation is a very small fragment of a much bigger picture that tells you what’s actually happening

there’s something like 40 specs with many being popular and many being unpopular

there’s seasons where arms is actual trash and it has high representation because it fits into multiple comps and has a long history of popularity
while niche specs like feral/enha/outlaw ect can EAAAAAASILY be the best specs in the game and not crack top 15 for representation

all you’re really doing is observing that dh tuning led players to being significantly higher rating than they would normally

the same is true for almost any spec though so it doesn’t really give you concise meaningful information

if they nerfed unholy right now several bad unholy dks at higher ratings would lose points because they are fundamentally bad
but that wouldn’t be any sort of proof in determining that unholy would then be underperforming LMAO

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The mental gymnastics people have to jump through to prove a point. At one moment people say representation doesn’t matter while also linking representation anytime a class is OP that they want nerfed or buffed or whatever.

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88

Yes population has an impact a very small impact at the top of the ladder. Ask yourself if 10,000 players whom play 1200-1400 lobbies reroll DH how many of them are going to make it to the top 100-200 Demon hunter spot on the ladder? None? That’s Right.

If you were talking about the top 10,000 or even top 5,000 players? Ok population has a bigger impact on percentages but still wouldn’t change the overall rankings drastically, rankings being most rep down to least rep.

But let’s give in to your line of thinking. The top players reroll. Why does a class gain popularity? Players reroll because the class is garbage? No players do not do that, yes players reroll sometimes just to try something out but generally players don’t reroll to be worse off.

If you accept that population is a key factor and you really believe it has a large impact at the top and those population imbalances suggest a lopsided ladder isn’t an issue. You run into this other big problem.

If almost all of you rerolled Ret after 07 and 99% of DPS where Ret at the top of the ladder, no problem? Ret is balanced based on population after all. Ret is 99% of the player base and 99% of the ladder. Doesn’t indicate a problem? Major problem, Ret spiked to 35% of melee after the rework not primarily because of rerolls, ret went to 35% because the Ret paladins playing just under the top of the ladder moved up and farmed the other players down. It’s almost as if… when a class gets stronger it shows up in rep… Hmm :thinking:

Please don’t forget population in itself can be an indication of which classes are the strongest. I mean how many players are rerolling from DH right now to play something like feral or survival? DH is bad going to destroy as feral instead. Or could it be the other way around?

For real? Make your mind up. You said blizz can’t balance around bad players then advocated for balancing around classes being played at ceiling, then claim that’s not a good metric? You seem confused. Maybe it’s because the ladder is a good indication, demonstrated by your own logic. You didn’t want that to be true so you changed your mind in an instant.

Didn’t play last season.

This is an admission that I’m right. You understand that don’t you?

DH as a spec got weaker relative to everyone else. Performance on the ladder was weaker because of it, rep went down.

Getting a higher rating than you would otherwise get perfectly demonstrates that the ladder is an instrument of measure in terms of class power.

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89

you completely misread both of these

first, you’re replying to my reply to glkd and assuming i’m talking to or about you in this exact response

second, what i said was that -the majority of good players are NOT spam qing shuffle right now- 2100 in shuffle right now isn’t made up of the ‘top of the ladder’ tier players

it’s made up of players like gdkl who are typically very low rated but are utilizing the roll over mmr and powering through the multi hour long queue times
where better players are playing 3v3 where there’s actual queues

using those players as a metric filtered by 2100 implying the weight of 2100 is success is dumb

no, it’s an admission that the data you gather from representation doesn’t tell a complete or meaningful story

you can observe that a class being nerfed causes players worse at said class to lose rating
but that is true even if the spec in question isn’t overtuned in the first place

what you can’t determine is the next step in balancing which is the reason anyone with half a brain regurgitates “representation doesn’t mean anything”

you can make the observation right now that dh and dk are infact overtuned by their dominant representation

you cannot make the obsersation that outlaw rogue is overtuned because of it’s poor representation

both can be (and are) true at the same time and you wouldn’t have any idea

if they started buffing underrepresented specs simply because they have low representation we’d end up buffing some of the very best specs in the game that are just unpopular with the average player

you seen sv with 4pc? its INSANE
sv is one of, if not the lowest represented spec in the game
to say that the top 5 represented specs in the game make up the best specs in the game is an observation void of awareness

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I never said complete, indicator, measuring tool doesn’t mean complete. Yes it does tell a meaningful story

Worse in what way? The players that dropped off were top 3-400 DH, top few % of a spec isn’t bad.

TRUE! We’re getting somewhere!

I do understand. Outlaw might be getting farmed down by the top 3 melee, or BM hunters. I don’t know. Maybe if those classes are nurfed it goes to #1 for all I know. Please try to understand that saying the ladder shows class power isn’t the same as understanding all of the reasons why, how in specific terms to remedy the imbalance or accurately predict every possible out come for each of the specs when the top classes are brought down to earth.

It simply tells you loud and clear which classes are the most dominant and to what degree. Wouldn’t argue which class is better when the rep is reasonably close, but when it’s significant it tells a meaningful story.

As I’ve stated it’s in relation to other specs. That is given current state of the game, not stated earlier, hope that was obvious. I understand PvP is an ecosystem and as you weaken the predators others will rise. I doubt outlaw will rise and crush the ladder TBH, could, but would need to be more than just nurfs to DK and DH.

I will grant you a class like rogue can always have a crazy comp or two, simply because the rogues busted kit in terms of control. We also should recognize that the ability to play more comps and be effective is an expression of how strong a class is. Effective in 2 comps vs effective in 20 comps? Not a stronger PvP class?

Maybe. You make changes based on what you know to be true while trying to consider the overall effects on the game. You can’t be afraid to make changes when classes are doing much worse than others. Small changes can go a long way sometimes, other times you get nothing or small changes that do very little. It’s hard to imagine some small buffs implemented weekly over the course of a month to underperforming specs will destroy balance. You do this after bringing down the over performers or during with small changes, this mitigates the unpredictability of buffs to underperformers.

If it’s really is insane with 4 piece, they will start winning more games and climbing the ladder and gaining rep.

No awareness isn’t a void. Ask yourself this, if you got a cash prize of a million dollars for winning an arena, you and your team could play whatever you wanted with a month to practice. You’re not going to have at least one of the top 5 on your roster? Keep in mind the other team picks whatever they want as well.

Not you! Top 5 means nothing! You going to run double enhance with holy into some combination of DH/DK/BM/DEMO/Resto/disc. After you get tunneled into oblivion losing in the first 60 seconds, you’ll still be saying top 5 means nothing. You’re a million poorer but still right damn it! Never mind you lost of course. You lost because you were right… somehow

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Remi in a nutshell, I’m tapping out trying to reason with this room temp IQ individual.

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I don’t think trolls here aren’t smart, I think they’re spewing patterns that are basically ideological. Ideology, based in instinct and emotion, will always reject reason to maintain its ground and achieve its aims. What reason could people have against balancing the game, other than wanting to enjoy FoTM or just gatekeep so that they can feel better about their pixels? The power swings, long queues and healers quitting are outcomes of the game changing in unhealthy ways over time and are concerns for its future. People defending or deflecting from the issues are just refusing to think long-term, or even about their own enjoyment that should come from playing the game.
I think everyone here, including myself, can be blamed of belonging to this camp at some point or another. Whenever your class is having an easier time, it’s only natural you’d want to maintain the path of least resistance. Some people will just reroll every time, this is how a lot of Shift4 is made in the gaming industry unfortunately.

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lifetime rival boomkin giving his all blood,sweat,and tears for 2100 in the meme brackets on week 21’s personal opinion isn’t “reason”