To be honest, it’s not even about this, it’s about replicating the original game, and Warlocks 20-30% ahead and other caster classes such as ele shaman/balance druids were simply not doing the numbers they are doing in this WotLK classic version of the original! The numbers are just wrong even if it is the final patch! I can’t see the haste and tier set bonuses making up a 20-30% disparity for ret to where it should be, only time will tell!
I actually cannot believe what has just transpired, I had a reasonable post removed from this thread. I can understand if it was abusive/childish etc, which it was not. It was FACT stating from a person who was involved in the upper echelons of ICC Heroic clearing, namely Ka Pai guild, which we were the number 1 oceanic guild at the time, so no slouches! To reiterate my points in relation to Ret dps disparity:
- some people are saying players today are far more savvy than original WotLK, particularly Warlocks, who have leapt some 40-50% damage increase at this particular juncture, compared to the original game. I am dubious around this fact, lock rotation due to changes from TBC was a point of contention with Ghostcrawler at the time! But 40-50% damage increase? Really? the best players in the world (which may be playing today) were that bad? I don’t think so personally, this is not a hard game.
- We are playing the final patch of WotLK, which over time buffed some caster classes, such as ele shaman, balance druids etc, who early on were really not sighted too much, on metres, nor “rolled”, nor were anywhere near their current dps outputs. This could be attributed to the buffs received from Patch 3.0 to 3.3 and the gear scaling…potentially…
- Ret was around “B-A” Tier in terms of damage output in the end, it was “S” tier at the prepatch of WotLK (end of TBC) due to Seal of the Martyr/Blood seal damage, SoM/SoB Judgement damage (coefficients), and Divine Storm being full Holy damage, we were literally running around prepatch 2 shotting people in BGs, largely spamming DS, that was brought back markedly by full release. We remained VERY strong the entire expansion. We were ALWAYS in the top 5 dps in a 25 man raid, if not top 1-3, with very little noticeable disparity! The fact we are not now, and are “D-E” tier, could be due to numerous reasons, namely:
- Final patch 3.3 and the buffs to other classes and the scaling of gear. A lot of haste gear later on in endgame increasing seal damage, stacking Vengeance via white melee hits (outside these changes noted above), and decreasing spell internal GCD to spam Exo/Cons/HW moreso in the FCFS rotation.
- Final patch coefficients of abilities to classes and buffs from Patch 3.0 to 3.3.
- Player skill level and knowledge base exceeding original, even though WoW was at it’s peak with 12 million players and even more websites were talking WoW mechanics along with WoWhead etc being around! I just do not buy into this sorry. Maybe slightly by 5-10%, not 40-50% difference in terms of Warlock damage atm! Things like meta gem swapping to me is exploiting a bug, not in the spirit of the game or original design intent. (ie DKs buffing haste effects), i’m not taking exploitation into account.
- Or are the numbers just plain wrong internally compared to the original?
Time will tell, the numbers do not lie, one thing is for certain, come ToC or ICC, Ret should be somewhere between “B” and “A” Tier, where we were back in a day! Not “D-E” Tier currently! It simply was not the case, Ret was VERY very competitive damage wise in the right hands! It was not trailing classes by 30%, sorry. I have the screenshots of the original WotLK.
Whole lotta “feelscraft” here. Nothing more.
Or you can cut the childish narcissism, that is so prevalent in society from your commentary and be an adult and discuss the points made. There is a MAJOR disparity in numbers, plain and simple! Posting on a druid character, did you actually play the original WotLK? And did you play Retribution spec at all?
People had 10 years+ to theorycraft, simulate and perform with the classes since WOTLK live was current. The players back then didnt. Not only are the players better today than they were back then, they know more now than they did back then.
Even if I agreed with you, that players are smarter and far superior (a highly narcissistic thing to suggest), I do not believe within the realms of the reasonable that a 40%+ damage disparity would suggest such a reality!
It’s true private servers such as Warmane, which I have played on, may have allowed “some” players to further experiment with rotation etc, but from memory, warlocks even on there were not doing what they’re doing on live classic Wrath, and the numbers on Warmane could never be relied upon anyway!
What can be done by a warlock today, that is so prophetic, that the BEST players in method and Elitist Jerks forums etc back in a day couldn’t work out?
It is not narcissistic to suggest this. You just dont like it because youd have to admit that players today are better than you were back then, its true.
Method and Elitist Jerks would get smoked by the top teams of today.
I will say that the method and elitist jerks of today (if they were all playing still today) would smoke their former selves.
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So answer the question, what can be done today, that is so prophetic, by Warlocks, that has catapulted their dps 30% above any competitor + the disparity they had, being lower dps back in a day? What ability and rotation was overlooked by Elitist Jerks forums where they theorycrafted stat weightings that are still applicable to today and used by the BiS lists apps? I’m interested in the numbers and variables involved, not “your take” on who would “smoke” who. Why is such an insanely large disparity there? You haven’t answered that.
Youd have to ask the top warlocks what theyre doing differently compared to warlocks back then, I am not one.
So why answer at all? Just narcissistic “players are better”! Which means nothing sorry! It’s an irrelevant statement that adds zero to this dilemma in dps disparity that simply did not exist
Because its true that players today are better than the players of then, because of resources and time to perfect the classes they have the advantage of 10+ years of perfecting it whereas you guys didnt back then.
Im not sure you understand what narcissism is. You thinking you were better back then because you were on a #1 OCE team is more narcissistic than suggesting something that is statistically proven to be true.
On top of that, nowhere have I suggested that I myself am better than players back then.
Narcissism is a lack of empathy towards others, they shame/guilt and make people “walk on eggshells” with their statements and dismiss others comments or when talking in a calm conversation, they shut that conversation down when it does not suit their narrative usually in a “fight” response and name call. They also are highly anxious people at their core, and have a false for public consumption persona, an aloof attitude. Acting in a childish manner,stuck at the age they were abused. So yeah I do know narcissism and Complex PTSD that causes it, widely read sir. And “many” in these forums display narcissistic qualities, of “I know best” and shut down conversations in an abusive name calling fashion, instead of adding to the conversation in a quality fashion
nar·cis·sism
[ˈnärsəˌsizəm]
NOUN
- excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one’s physical appearance.
Which is also indicative of you being the narcissist. You were the one to call people narcissistic in a calm conversation.
Since you’re so well read, you should read up on projection 
That is definitely part of the “fake for public consumption” persona, the coping mechanism from the Complex PTSD they suffered.
This is off topic now. I appreciate your input, but it does not explain such a large disparity, players have “explored” some new modalities of play, to create a “speed run” culture. A 40%+ warlock damage disparity I feel cannot be attributed to the patch and gear scaling, nor player “skill”, as in my mind, unless, as you state above, someone at the upper echelons of game play can give a full rundown of how spamming the same abilities they had back in a day, with full quality discussions on EJ forums (rotation, coefficients vs stat weighting of gear etc), could not perform, in terms of dps/damage done today, in fact 40% less effective!
Mate, I have the screenshots from the original WotLK, the numbers from that and from memory do not stack up, there is a disparity here! Ret paladins were not “E” tier dps at any stage of the expansion, Locks were not “S” tier damage, they are now. I’m stating in a reasonable fashion, and throwing it out there “why?”. You answered in a stereotypical Blizzie forum manner, aloof and knowing all, dismissing my commentary as if it was nothing, then answering “players are far better and smoke anyone from back then” with no real substance to your commentary, bar “your” opinion? Do you understand how that comes across? You’re not the only one, this is a phenomenon on the net. Whether you personally have “narcissistic tendency” or not, it does not come across very well sadly. You’re basically dismissing literally elements involved in the game today, such as Ion Hazzikostas, those guys were nothing players? Who were 40-50% damage behind the current crop? Really? After all the hours, days, weeks being involved in software like RAWR and baseline theorycrafting the BiS lists we still use today? They were not smart enough to work out a lock rotation, that is the same? They were 40% less damage because they were garbage players? I don’t buy it sorry
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You’re not a psychologist
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Your own definitions you brought to the table have shown you to be the narcissist here.
Stop playing psychologist. I brought up that players have 10 years+ of practicing these classes that the people back then didnt. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. Anything you do if you have 10 years of practice compared to 1 youre going to be better at it. That is not opinion, that is fact. Week 2 ulduar when live it was unheard of for a pug to down not just ulduar, but hardmodes in ulduar. That is not opinion, that is fact. Every statistic shows that players today are better than players back then.
Well if we’re in WRATH + let’s get more changes
So in terms of these facts you state, as I asked to contribute to the points made, what bar “your opinion”, which you are staying hard on, without offering anything else to the argument, is creating the 40%~ warlock dps disparity? In terms of mechanics that were not understood back in a day on forums like Elitist Jerks? You said you can’t answer that, so why continue this conversation? In terms of actual tangible evidence that the “numbers” are out compared to this exact juncture, I can attest to the exact Ulduar disparity. I myself as Ret am doing around 5-10% more damage than I was back in a day, with slower reflexes, because i’m older. This does not answer why certain classes are doing 30-50% more! That is an abnormal disparity even if players are “better”. There is something else up, and that is what I am eluding too.
this thread is massive and idk if this has been posted yet but what exactly is stopping prot paladins from taking this glyph? they do have another taunt available to them so theres not a huge downside to it