Unsustainable Rated PvP System: Solutions

****UPDATE: 8/12/23
Just after this post was made, both Venruki and Supatease have made YT vids talking about a lot of the points made in here and giving some of their own ideas. Worth checking out if you hate reading.


Healers are playing 400 +/- their CR in lobbies: Relatively speaking, there are no healers left. You have taken too long to genuinely incentivize them to even want to play, gameplay-wise, reward-wise and MMR/system-wise.

LFG is polarized: throughout the day there are teams at 1900-2100 CR looking for a solid 3rd teammate to “push for glad” that never comes, or people on their alts at 1300-1600 trying to grind conquest or just play for christ sake through 2s. There is hardly anyone on either spectrum and basically nobody in between.

Nobody is playing.

Why not? Gearing this expansion is for the most part the best it’s ever been. Balance changes being timely pushed out has been an amazing thing to behold after all these years. Class balance at the time of writing seems pretty good. These are huge improvements to the PvP system, so what’s going on? Why is nobody playing?

Nobody can play because of wait times, and even when we’ve waited around long enough to be able to play, the incentives don’t outweigh the headaches/wait times so nobody wants to play. We are caught within a negative feedback loop.

20+ minute Solo Shuffle queues, and the archaic LFG system that it sought to seudo replace, are at this point in the gaming industry ludicrous wait times and systems for a AAA company to expect their playerbase to deal with. The main culprit of these wait times is what it has been since Solo Shuffle’s launch: there is not and never will be a healthy healer to DPS ratio for reasonable queue times.

Compounded by a shortsighted suffocation of MMR gain, lowered rewards in Solo Shuffle, Solo Shuffle’s design itself being suboptimal, and a meta that’s not worth the stress for most would be healers, a massive negative feedback loop is being created that’s bleeding player participation dry, making queue/wait times worse. The negatives of our current PvP system have greatly overshadowed the positives of class balance and gearing.

At this point, it’s kinda strange that Blizzard continues to allocate resources to balancing play modes whose players can’t properly participate in, we’re all sitting in massive queues not getting to amply experience the fruits of those changes.

And yes, some players are still having a blast, that’s great, we are happy for you. Those of us with a lot of in game friend options, or who enjoy healing in this meta are able to still find some fun. But that is such a tiny minority. For most players, seeing the majority of opinions being tossed around different social platforms, and the participation numbers this season speaking for themselves, morale of the PvP community is at an all time low.

Obviously this is not sustainable, and the usual go to method of doing nothing or waiting too long to do something substantial could possibly make this situation permanently unrecoverable, which nobody wants.

No matter how fun, OP, or rewarding it is to play a healer, there will never be enough of them to justify having entire queue systems reliant on their participation. This is coming from someone who is a healer main solely to be able to play in a sensical manner of time. It’s time to shift away having to rely on them for players to get to play in our modern day queue system.

So let’s get to it and talk about some legitimate solutions.

I’ll consolidate a list of ideas being tossed around in different communities that could alleviate some problems. As more people chime in, I’ll edit this post to reflect some good ideas being liked in the comments.

Thank-you to everyone that has read thus far:

GIVENS:

No matter what system changes are chosen going forward, an absolute must is letting healers get either more MMR per match, and more MMR/CR for a tie. They will always deserve it, even the ones having fun solely playing heals or the ones that end up tying that had to play within a lower MMR match.

Revert the rewards nerf on Solo Shuffle, and never do that again. Please respect your players time. The problem was never how many people were playing shuffle, but how many healers weren’t.


  • ~SOLO QUEUE (3’s One-Offs)

– How:
Instead of 6 rounds it’s played as a normal 3’s match with only one round, only difference being you can solo queue in to it instead of sitting in LFG.

– Why:
Having only one round could potentially alleviate more healers back into the pool and get queues revolving quicker. Being locked into a 15min+ match deters players (healers) from even queueing in the first place, it can be annoying.

One-offs allow players to queue more fluidly with their time, and lower toxic situations like being locked in for multiple rounds with players throwing/flaming.

– Potential problems:
People will complain about class imbalance.



  • ~3 MINUTE TIMER SOLO SHUFFLE

– How:
Dampening removed. On each round of Solo Shuffle there’s a ~3 minute timer, maybe less. If that timer runs out before anyone dies, both healers get a win, and the DPS get a loss.

– Why:
Playing as a healer feels like playing not to lose (letting a teammate die) instead of playing to win (killing an enemy). This new mode totally flips the table to where if the DPS don’t play well enough to land a kill, THEY are the losers, not the healers who did their job each round. This could drive DPS participation down, and healer participation up, both needed metrics within our current system for lower queues.

– Potential problems:
Zuggers will complain. Future meta changes favoring healers may be tough for DPS.


  • SOLO QUEUE (2s One-Offs)

– How:
Solo Shuffle removed. Replaced with a Solo Queue 2s bracket where healers are optional for a queue to pop. If the queue can’t find a healer, 2DPS will always play 2DPS, and if it does find a healer 1Heal + 1DPS will always play against another 1Heal + 1DPS.

– Why:
This eliminates the bottleneck of needing healers completely. Queues would be nearly instant at all rating. We would all spend the majority of our time playing the game rather than spending it waiting to play the game. Players can jump in, learn their class, gain honor, gain conquest etc all in a manner of time that’s sensical.

One-offs also allow players to queue more fluidly with their time, and lower toxic situations of players throwing/flaming.

– Potential problems:
Some players don’t enjoy 2s. Healers may actually have higher queue times than DPS. Some classes are at a disadvantage/advantage in 2s. But those may need to be necessary trade-offs.


  • SOLO QUEUE (Rated Skirms)

– How:
Solo Shuffle removed. Replaced with a Solo Queue where healers are optional for a queue to pop. If healers are found soonish (2min?), the queue pops as a 3v3 one-off. If no healers are found, it’s played as a 2v2 DPS one-off.

– Why:
Same reasons as the 2s only Solo Queue. Queue times are a thing of the past. Let’s 3s enjoyers still potentially enjoy 3s matches, so more variety in your queues.

– Potential problems:
Same but less as SQ 2’s. Healers would only ever play 3s in their queues.


  • SOLO QUEUE (Flex)

– How:
Solo Shuffle removed. Replaced with a Solo Queue where there is the additional option where 2 friends max can queue up together to potentially play 3s with a healer/DPS or against another 2s matching whether they are Healer + DPS or just 2DPS. People queueing solo can be matched however favors the queue time.

– Why:
Removes queue times. You can enjoy arena in a timely manner with your friends.

– Potential problems:
People would complain groups have an advantage, but that’s the benefit of not being an antisocial/toxic hermit.



These are just a few of many legitimate ideas floating around different platforms. Whether you agree or disagree, please share this post and encourage people to chime in. I’ll be posting this on other platforms as well.

There ARE solutions to the current mess that is the rated PvP system, it’s just a question of how hard we as a community are willing to push Blizzard to implement them.

Please share! Get this out there. Chime in with opinions, be construcive. As I said I’ll edit in ideas the community likes within the comments.

Thanks for reading and participating.


------------------TL/DR: Queue times and current PvP system are unsustainable. Presentation and discussion of current solutions that could be implemented.----------------

27 Likes

Many healers play to win through CC or contributing damage during kill windows. I’m not sure where you got this idea from.

But not dying could also be the result of good defensive use, positioning, and CC from DPS players.… are you saying none of this should matter and the healer should only get the win anyway?

I think everyone would complain once they see how degenerate the games become especially at higher ratings.

No – 2s isn’t a balanced bracket.

Again, game quality would be degenerate. Some classes absolutely rely on healers to have a playable experience.

Which would defeat the entire purpose of soloqueue?

These “solutions” do not work. In fact, I’d argue they would make PVP worse.

10 Likes

Blozzard will not read this ong fr

Also blizzard is now named blozzard. To save on ink costs writing an “i” in their name

1 Like

Pretty fitting that you’re literally a troll.

What ideas do you have?

You can’t be serious in thinking shuffle and LFG in its current state is making PvP “better” or is sustainable.

How is expecting DPS to properly CC etc to land kills with a timer “degenerate play”?

No, 2’s isn’t a bALaNcEd bRacKeT and yes would be less perfect than 3’s, but at this point it’s pretty clear waiting around for 20+ minutes to play just because there aren’t enough healers isn’t going to last. The rated skirms idea covers that for the 3s purists too.

But again what changes would you suggest to help?

9 Likes

This is a terrible idea. Since most healers have plenty of ways to help force kills and this would disincentives healers from going for it instead of just afk healing and trying not to let their team die. Also it’s incredibly difficult if not impossible for some comps to secure a kill in 3 minutes without dampening.

So this one would be cool if it was done completely differently from how you described it. You keep normal solo shuffle and make it so you can q for normal ranked 3’s as flex while looking for a third. This could potentially make finding teammates a lot easier. I could not tell you how many times I have 1 person I like qing with and we’re just permanently stuck finding a 3rd.

2 Likes

oh my god. stopped reading after there. should have stopped reading before.

2 Likes

Horrible idea lmaooo

4 Likes

Well you received 3 other replies that are even more critical of your ideas. People can disagree with your ideas without it being a “troll”.

Where did I say either of those?

I would suggest things that do not destroy the game.

If healers won and DPS lost if no one died within a given time limit then the DPS would have no incentive to play defensively past a certain point. Deep dampening still has nuance, but in a world where your horrific suggestion came to pass the DDs would just stand still and glass one another at t-minus 30 seconds (or however much time is necessary to ensure someone dies instead of no one). Better to expose yourself to a 95% chance of dying if it gives you a 5% chance of victory and the alternative is a 100% chance of losing.

Your suggestion belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the role healers play. A healer’s job is to make someone on the enemy team dead before someone on their team is dead, same as the DDs in the lobby. Healers just focus on the defensive angle first and offensive angle second instead of the opposite as DDs do. Any time no one dies for an extended time it’s thanks to (and/or the fault of) both the DDs and healers in the match. You failed to secure a kill just as much as the DDs did, and they contributed to the team’s survival just as much as you did. It’s a team effort. The opposite is also true, as any time someone dies in 10 or 20 or 30 seconds it’s the fault of everyone on the losing team (and/or the success of everyone on the winning team). Arena is team vs. team, not healer vs. DPS, and just generally your idea here injects a lot of incentives to game the system instead of playing to win.

Absurd statement. If you go 3-3 as a healer, against an equivalent healer, you do not deserve MMR or CR. The healer ladder should be artificially inflated to match the DD ladder, but infinite inflation for draws is a ridiculous ask.

There are three possible futures where the healer shortage is not an issue.

  1. Healers are dropped from PvP balance entirely and arena becomes a pure DD brawl. This would require a top-to-bottom rebalancing of every spec in the game, but it’s entirely doable and would result in a competitive game mode that wouldn’t experience significant queue issues until the overall playerbase hits a critical low point. After the rebalance you steal Lost Ark’s arena format where it’s a single round of X minutes with no shuffling, and the winning team is the one which scores the most kills. Players who die respawn in their preparation box after Y seconds. It may seem zergy at first glance, but it’s actually isn’t and is a fun system with its own depth.

  2. 3v3 is dropped and arena is rebalanced around a bracket which fits the number of people actually playing healers, which would be 5v5 or 6v6. I’d say the maps would need to be bigger for this one, or alternatively, as kind of a possibility 2.5, instead of arena at all we have 5v5/6v6 BGs instead. I think either of these would actually be a much larger departure from the game we currently play than dropping healers would be. Pure brawls simply devolve as the scale goes up, and BGs are an entirely different type of game.

  3. Every 4 round wins healers are given tokens which allow them to jump the queue on any DD of their choice. Generally this would require two full matches played per fast pass token, and by requiring wins it would head off any issues of people AFKing games for their tokens. By requiring four wins in specific it would encourage people to try their hardest, as 4-2 is the most realistic and attainable tier of victory, and in addition to winning it would mean an entire token for just that one match. Ultimately this would lower queue times significantly and would be self-balancing. The longer DPS queues get the more appealing healer matches become, and the more healers are injected into the system via people opting to serve their time as healer instead of waiting the queue. This is the easiest to implement and could be done within a patch, but it also only fixes the problem largely rather than entirely.

Anything besides one of these three paths is going to have a minor impact at most. We should still throw everything and the kitchen sink at the problem, but very little is going to change overall due to things like inflating the healer ladder and giving healers cosmetics.

this was a thing in mop

2 Likes

I thought you were doing okay until this point, you need to be flagged for trolling.

1 Like

The solutions proposed are not that great.

3 minute timer is too short. Giving wins to healers will enrage the DPS.

Partied solo queue and LFG is already in the game as 2s and 3s rated ladder.

The solution is just make the healer role fun enough that people will queue it in solo shuffle and actually enjoy it. There is a surplus of DPS that need healers. No amount of MMR inflation is going to bring healers back into this high dampening and high damage meta. It’s bad. You can’t overlap 1 defensive or you lose. Give the healers more breathing room to make plays.

You can make changes like:

  1. Reducing damage will make it more fun for healers.
  2. Reducing CC will make it more fun for healers.
  3. Reducing dampening will make it more fun for healers.
  4. Changing cooldown trading and DRs may make it more fun and change the variability of the comps being played.

But this comes at the expense of DPS players not liking the meta.

There must be at least some middle ground so all the healer mains enjoy it and want to keep queuing and the DPS say fair enough at least my queue times are shorter.

1 Like

Remove 3v3 RSS and give us 6v6 RBG RSS.

1 Like

Look, I’m all for further incentivizing healers and making improvements to the LFG system, but all of these suggestions listed by OP are either downright bad or a “you think you do, but you don’t”.

Again, I am in full support for further incentivizing healers and updating the LFG system
However, no matter what incentives you add and what improvements you make, healing will still be less popular and have longer Q times and LFG will still suffer as its biggest problem is not its interface, but the community.

Every single person who has played this game has signed up for a 2s/3s/rbg/M+/raid that they are more than geared/qualified for and gotten declined because they weren’t absurdly overqualified for the position. No matter how much you make systems changes, as long as players have that choice (and they SHOULD have more choice than not IMO), there will always be LFG issues.

3 Likes

LMFAO

LMFAO

very loosely using legitimate here

2 Likes

Ya, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I really think Bloomsday did a great job explaining why the OPs ideas are detrimental to the game. Never thought I’d see the day when the OG forum trolls would be on the side of logic and reason.

4 Likes

This is the entire point of the post, we have to get away from Solo Queue revolving around needing healers or it will never go anywhere. Having it be dynamic in where it pops in whatever way you guys don’t think would “break the game” with or without a healer is the only way to get away from these insanely high queue times that are driving players away.

2 Likes

the game functionally doesn’t work without a healer

2v2 dps and 3v3 dps is just a completely different game with almost 0 depth

it removes almost everything about WoW arena that makes it addicting in favor of just getting in a game to press random buttons faster

incentivizing healers and rewarding them will go a LOT farther than trying to make the game work without them

4 Likes

We need a bracket where players can just queue and play within a meaningful timeframe while still progressing their conquest/rewards, without having to rely on LFG.

Otherwise we just get what we have now, nobody playing.

It doesn’t have to be a purely 2’s bracket, we can come up with more fluid ideas to get queue times down, or somehow get more healers to play. But like I and someone else already said no matter what we throw at healers it won’t significantly change much.

4 Likes

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, No.

1 Like