Understanding Raider IO

Every week, or really everyday, a new thread pops up for Raider IO and there is always a good bit of misinformation spread about the tool. Not that the information is intended to always be malicious, but it’s problematic in how the tool works and what it means for the game and people who use it.

First, all of the information the addon and website uses are available from Blizzard’s own API or can be scraped from the Mythic+ Leaderboard on Wow’s website. Some of that information can even be scraped from a player’s armory. A lot of people seem to think it requires logging or some other input from the player’s. It doesn’t.

This is a pretty important piece of the discussion as many disgruntled players seem to want to place blame on the addon and the information it provides. If you disagree with the addon, that’s fine, but your concerns should be directed to Blizzard and what information they supply. Generally speaking though, the data provided by the API are essential to a lot of players and outside contributors to continue to make addons and websites that supplement the games design. So if you don’t like the addon, the core of what you really don’t like is the leaderboard and the progress/achievements displayed in the armory.

A lot of people seem to feel like removing this tool will alleviate issues of getting invites to groups. To that, people think an underlying elitist culture has been built up around it. All valid arguments, but for players like myself, the tool is invaluable at quickly making decision when forming groups. I predominantly pug and ease of access to information is a massive time saver.

Before raider io… I was using wow progress. Before that, armory. Before that I was inspecting players individually.

This can take a great deal of time and actually makes creating groups much harder. I spend more time looking up people then actually enjoying the content. As is, it still can take 30 minutes or more to put some groups together. I try to be respectful of player’s time, but players also want to complete the key as well. It’s always a trade off. So any tool that makes this process more efficient, the better.

The elitist culture… exists in every part of the game. Be it raiding, pvp, etc. No form of content is immune to it. There are good, friendly players in all those forms of content as well. For as much pugging as I do, generally speaking, the experience is positive. I still have my issues with people dropping keys or being arrogant or entitled, but that’s just the nature of any content that has some level of competition to it.

As far as the score goes, it’s mostly arbitrary and IS NOT the end all be all. Typically, seeing the score relative to the players experience in the specific dungeon and ilvl is what I’ll be looking for. It’s a culmination of everything. For harder keys, I might even look at logs if it’s applicable. As I don’t raid, I don’t hold this against players, but every bit helps.

To those player’s frustrated that the addon and website exclude them from doing content, this is honestly confusing to me. Do you have the same feeling towards mythic raiding guilds or high rated pvp? Do you also feel excluded from that content? M+, like any content, can require a bit of effort in knowing routes, strats, etc. The strat for a +10 might be different for a +15 or a +20. What wasn’t killing you in a +15 is one shotting you in a +18.

While there is a lot more to be said, the constant threads about the addon or about M+ in general are… bewildering. M+ has been the most enjoyable form of content for me and a lot of other players. I’d love to see that content improved and the issues of many players alleviated, but in the end, many of these issues are unfounded and simply understanding how it works would go a long ways.

TLDR: The addon works with data provided by Blizzard. The addon also simplifies practices already set in place. Without it, other tools would be used.

23 Likes

My issue isn’t specifically with raiderio. Raiderio is just one of many symptoms. I fully understand how it works and why it exists.

It’s just depressing how score-driven and cutthroat this game has become. I’m starting to feel like there’s no place in it any more for someone like me who just want to relax, have fun and enjoy the ride. I honestly find M+ to be intense and stressful content and it seems like if someone is struggling to perform, the community views that person as worthless. Raiderio is just a reflection of that.

Of course I’m going to get flamed for this, but that’s just how I am feeling at the moment, to the point where I’m considering quitting the game for the first time. I don’t feel like I belong anymore.

17 Likes

An alternative and solo progression path is needed so people don’t feel like raider io is putting them out of a job.

If people don’t belong in groups, fine.

Let them progress outside of groups.

2 Likes

I wont lie and say there hasnt been build up in elitism because of rio. I have no doubt there are more elitists because of rio. That said, the elitism culture existed long before rio and that culture has been the cause of many addons like rio to be created.

Gearscore is the first example i know of where people were requiring higher criteria than what the content would give. So the tools certainly make the elitist group bigger but that group has existed long before these tools have existed.

1 Like

Thats harder done than said. How do you make a solo progression route that feels rewarding while not being on par or better than the hardest content AND not have people feel like doing it is pointless.

I think that idea is just impossible.

2 Likes

One way would be to let everyone earn the best gear… but slower.

I get that when you quit for 10 months and come back, you want to log one raid and be instantly ahead of the scrubs who have been working all expac to get manapearls or pieces of lint or whatever else…

…but that doesn’t keep either of us subbed.

1 Like

I dont have an issue with the site, or addon itself. But, there are a lot of people whom do not do M+ a lot. They might do it a few times during the week to help someone out, or maybe grab a piece of gear to try and replace something that is low in their set. (Pray to the RNG gods on that one)

The issue, is that due to that fact, they dont have a high score, because they dont spend all of their played time doing it. In the eyes of people whom solely rely on Raider/IO, this makes them bad, when a lot of the times, they arent.

I dont do a lot of M+, but I know the affixes, what they do, how to deal with them and I know how to play my spec. But, because I dont have a high score, I am immediately a bad player who cant perform the same as someone with a 1500+ score.

It isnt the tool that is to blame, it is the people whom rely on it. That type of behavior has segregated the community to a point. It isn’t Blizzards fault, it isnt the sites fault, it is the people whom are at fault.

But then when you tell them “Look, simply because I dont do a lot of M+ doesnt mean I cannot perform my duty properly in the group”, you get replies like “LOL ok baddie” or, none at all.

9 Likes

World quests are there for those people.

2 Likes

You can do M0 just fine.

1 Like

no, but it does make them inexperienced.

When I’m putting a group together for the 15 TD key sitting in my bags (not that I’d do something that silly, but…), do I choose the 450 druid who has 0 relevant experience in TD because they only run a + once a week, or the 450 druid who has timed a +15 TD multiple times?

understand, I don’t know one druid from the other. the guy with no experience could be the better player, but I have no way of knowing that, I’m going to hedge my bets and choose based on experience.

7 Likes

I guess it’s all relative. For me, that experience has almost always existed. What we have now is no different then what gear ilvl represents. There used to a 1:1 relationship with the gear you had and your overall experience. That just isn’t the case anymore. So instead of me looking at just ilvl and achievements, it’s a lot of other pieces. It’s… much more complicated.

I get that, but the addon isn’t a reflection of that. The addon is just an extension of what the game has always provided. The form of how it’s being provided is just different now. What matters now is different.

If the end game content in wow isn’t for you, that’s fine, but for me, this is what has always been. Achievements, rating, scores, etc.

I think a lot of that exists, but it could be expanded. In the past, Raiding was the only path outside of some pvp activities. M+ has allowed another path. I’d agree that the game needs a questing path. Just a totally PvE experience for players to develop their toons. It might end up being the longest route, but it may be straight forward. I think it would definitely be good for the game.

Sorry, but firmly disagree with this. Those people are just more evident because of it. The addon and the information didn’t make people more elitist.

I also firmly disagree that the culture of elitism is what spawned this tool. For people like me, I don’t want to spend hours looking through everyones armory to host content. Not everyone in this game likes to make groups. And fewer yet do it consistently and do it well. Having access to information makes creating groups easier. Tools like this make it possible to spend more time playing the game then just looking people up. The net benefit in my mind is huge.

Totally understand that. To that, if there are so many people in that boat though, why are they not able to find each other and push content? You can simply ignore RIO and use chat to find groups. There are large communities that push keys that also don’t have strict rules surrounding them.

If you wish to do so, you can ignore the addon and the site and simply create content to your liking, which… is honestly how its always been done.

I don’t understand how this is any different then mythic raiding. Do you feel the same is true for that end game content? Getting invited to a +0 to +4 is basically lfg, normal is +5 to +9, +10 to +14 is somewhat the heroic range… and well you get the idea.

So do you honestly feel that raiding made the game more segregated? Or PvP? I’m just trying to play devils advocate here because I honestly don’t understand this part. Partially because this is the game I have always played since wrath.

2 Likes

That isnt relevant to people knowing the affixes. Other than any mechanic changes the bosses might have, the level of the key only changes the fact there are affixes. Most people by now know the dungeons. Most people by now also know what the affixes do and how to deal with them.

I do, with all the “Link AOTC” groups, yes.

1 Like

M0s don’t offer anything other than freehold and underrot possibly dropping a mount.

As someone who doesn’t eat, sleep and breathe M+ like some seem to, I feel more and more behind everyone else. That kills my desire to go into PvP because who wants to undergeared and obliterated by everyone else? It kills my desire to raid because even though I have something of an understanding guild, it’s only going to become more and more apparent that I am a carry compared to all the other guildies running M+.

More and more it just feels like I don’t have a place in the game anymore.

2 Likes

Experience absolutely is relevant, if it weren’t, you could grab any 5 people with 0 m+ experience and go time a +15 right now.

even if they’ve read a guide and know what the affixes are, no experience actually doing so is going to be a detriment.

If only that were true.

5 Likes

Sure, then what’s the alternative?

I felt like LFR was the middle zone in there. In made content accessible to everyone with as little investment as possible. With the very minimum amount of time, you can see all the end game content.

If you want to step into harder content, then it takes more and more coordination as the difficulties progress. Well, that’s a lot of time out of someone’s life to host. I used to be a GM and host a lot of raids and it honestly took a great deal of time. I eventually stepped away from it because I wasn’t getting enough time to just enjoy the game.

So, when I did host the content, I wanted it to go well given the time investment. Experience and gear mattered a lot. If you didn’t have the basics, you weren’t getting invited.

If you didn’t invest the time to get AOTC, why should be allowed into an AOTC group? To that, why not host your own content where it isn’t required? There are almost always runs going that don’t require it.

I hear ya, but the dungeons ‘change’ the higher you move up. What matters in a +10 may not matter in a +15 and vice versa. The mechanic you might have even ignored in a +5 or +10 is now killing you in a +15.

The higher you go, the strats get more complicated. You make bigger skips. Kicks becomes more important. You start pulling trash packs with the boss. Your entire route can change. Just knowing how a dungeon works isn’t always enough. =/

7 Likes

The thing is that M+ is at the higher levels is really unforgiving, can be quite stressful and it punishes you for not timig it, this is the main reason people depend on IO to increase their chances of success. Unlike old heroics where you could sit there until people got the mechanics right, your key is pretty much wasted after one or two wipes. This puts a whole new layer of stress on the players that just want to get things done and gives newer players very little chances to improve.

Problem is, you learn nothing from current heroics and M0’s because most mechanics can be ignored and there is no affixes to give you a heads up of whats to come.

2 Likes

Raider/IO tells you what that toon has run, it doesnt tell you whether they have experience or not.

It is highly relevant. You are already showing signs of inexperience if you think it’s the boss mechanics that matter most in keys not how trash is played. But sure let’s focus on boss mechanics and how they change as you go higher.

First boss in freehold doesn’t really do much in a 5. In a 21 though his pistol shot 1 shots anyone who isn’t a tank. This necessitates playing it very differently than how a 5 would be played. Same with eudora.
Atal dazar last boss on a high tyrannical can be a 4-5 minute fight. That takes much better spider management technique than a +5 fortified.

Most people know mechanics? They should know them but they don’t. Just this week I had someone run the wrong was on Rezan and spawn adds. I’m the same pull another person stood on the ring side and ran into the boss instead of away only surviving because I was on my pally and saw it coming so I boped them.

2 Likes

What? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

2 Likes