Undermined gives me Main plot/Side plot reversal whiplash

Lore Story Forum
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I was very non-committal and underwhelmed by the Undermine patch before it went live; but I figured that could be fine because the part of Goblin lore that interested me was never about Gallywix or casinos and so this raid patch wasn’t really aimed at me. But now that I’ve completed it all and thought about why I’m disappointed…I think I now realize and notice a trend.

Firstly, I’m not telling anybody else that they can’t like what they got in the Undermined patch. This topic won’t be about quality. What I would say, is this patch felt like a side plot that got an incredible share of all the money and time the developers have available…while the most relevant and urgent and consistent main plot got ignored and had barely any attention or money used for it at all. Essentially the main plot got treated like a side plot.

This also happened in the initial launch patch of War Within…but it wasn’t true for all of world of warcraft. I never felt this way or made this conclusion for vanilla/bc/wrath/cata/mists/wod/legion. So I tried to work my way backward…

Undermine patch: goblin stuff side plot treated as main plot, main plot should be beledar and the world soul but they’re barely side plot.

Azj’kahet patch: nerubian stuff side plot treated as main plot, main plot should be beledar and world soul and earthen titankeepers.

Amirdrassil patch: Frivolous and irrelevant fire dragon side plot treated as main plot, main plot of emerald dream and lifelands and missing Freya and missing Tyr and Alexstrasza herself barely treated as side plot and neglected and never resolved.

Aberrus patch: random nobody npc from the dracthyr starting zone that even dracthyr players didn’t remember being tricked by a faceless one which should have been a side plot treated as main plot, meanwhile the main plot of void and old gods creating the incarnates and tyr and all titan keepers never being sought out and never consulted and every single other main dragonflight color never going down to help or clear anything up is barely treated as side plot and totally neglected and unfulfilled.

Vault of Incarnates patch: illogical and contrived random cultist groups appearing out of nowhere and never before mentioned Grimtotem npc barely worth a side plot treated as main plot, meanwhile main plot should be the Elemental Lords and elements activities around the world as well as titan keepers history discovered in new Uldaman wing and in caves on dragon isles where IMMEDIATELY we should be going to see the elemental lords and titan keepers and ask them what is going on and what the real history was and how they can help with the crisis…but barely treated as side plot and neglected and never addressed and left contradictory or unfulfilled.

Sepulcher First Ones patch: Worthless robot custodians and cheap copy of ethereal ‘broker’ npcs that are side plot at best were treated as main plot, whereas all the unethical First One machines and scams and farming of anima that reveals shadowlands are a fake and not the real “Realms of Death” should be the main plot…yet gets ignored and neglected and is contradictory and unfulfilled as side plot at best.

Sanctum Domination patch: treats the illogical and contradictory and inconsistent replacement sylvanas writing that doesn’t match the sylvanas writing from warcraft 3 until end of wrath side plot stuff as main plot, whereas First One stuff hinted at in Korthia should be main plot but is never treated correctly…gets neglected and ignored and unfulfilled as barely side plot and we still don’t know what Korthia is supposed to be.

Nathria patch: Strange illogical side plot npcs from all 4 zones that never really explain their connection to each other nor give any good explanation for why there are these four zones that should matter if there are infinite floating islands for souls to go to…which this side plot was treated as if it were a main plot, meanwhile the Azeroth Death Knights and all their sigils lore and undeath lore and helm of domination lore and sentient weapons lore in addition to night warrior of elune explanation and in addition to what is the Arbiter and what does it do and why and how does it do that…all 3 of which should be Main Plot instead gets neglected or ignored or unfulfilled and barely treated as side plot.

N’Zoth patch: Mogu stuff and Uldum stuff and random false stormwind/orgrimmar illusion predictions that are only side plot which were never going to happen get treated as main plot, whereas the main plot of what is Nyalotha and where is it and what is the Heart Chamber and the Sword still sitting there in Silithus get ignored or neglected or unfulfilled as side plot?

Azshara patch: Relatively okay patch, actually…except it should have better explained the Heart Chamber and how azerite would actually release the chains and serve as a better cohesive flow from the early patch to the ending patch thereafter.

Dazar’alor patch: Totally out of place faction fighting side plot and nothing my Horde characters in game would ever participate in… treated as main plot, and ironically it could have made more sense to have an Undermine goblin raid patch right there during BFA…which should have been the “South Seas” expansion anyway. You could have had Gallywix messing with azerite and xal’atath but failing in the technology and revealing an old god conspiracy leading to eternal palace next raid patch. That would have been a goblin raid and goblin patch that was main plot at the time.

Uldir patch: Nonsense side plot stuff of essentially race recolors and faction fake news fighting which got treated as main plot, whereas the main plot of healing the planet and removing the sword in silithus and figuring out what the heart chamber is and what Azerite is…should have been the main plot but got ignored or neglected or unfulfilled as barely side plot.

Going further back in time than that…I never felt such a whiplash effect of Main Plot and Side Plot being reversed in terms of developer time and money and attention. Even in the expansions that were not that good…say WoD or Cata…this reversal of main plot and side plot did not appear to be happening.

I’m worried for Midnight and Last Titan if this trend continues…

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This is the first in a 3 expac trilogy, they can’t blow their load about the titans and the world soul in the first expac

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The closest we ever had to this whiplash effect prior to BfA might be Wrath’s Argent Tournament patch (Jousting in Arthas’s backyard?!?), but even that did feel more tied to the main plot because of the purpose of said tournament.

While some of the patches you listed didn’t bother me as much (personal tolerances and all that), I do see where you’re coming from and agree with the general sentiment.

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In most expansions the middle patch(s) usually ties up any secondary story arcs before going into the grand finale.

TBC had the ‘in game voice chat’ patch (2.2) and Zul’Aman (2.3)
Wrath had Ulduar (3.1)
Cata had Rise of the Zandalari (4.1)
MoP had The Thunder King (5.2)
Dragonflight had Shadows of Neltharion (10.1)
And now TWW with Undermined (11.1)

WoD’s middle patch was literal filler (6.1) where the only important part was Gul’dan usurping control over the Iron Horde. Likewise with TBC’s most middle patch (2.2) was purely used to bring in an in game voice chat no-one used. Only Legion and Shadowlands are expansions where every major patch tied into the main story a major way.

For Legion
7.1 continued the Legions interest in Karazhan and how they wanted to use the tower as a new staging ground for their invasions. Also gives Khadgar some development, given that Dadgar can be argued was the main hero NPC of Legion.
7.2 was Tomb of Sargeras, where the 7.0 storyline (including Nighthold) was realized
7.3 was of course the Argus patch where we defeated the Legion once and for all.

Shadowlands had
9.1 where we try and stop Zovaal from reclaiming all of the Eternal Ones sigils, including the Arbiters, which ended up being his own.
9.2 has us following Zovaal into Zereth Mortis and stop him from dominating all of creation to his will.

Meanwhile TBC and BFA did a switch-a-roo. Where the main story from launch gets wrapped up and the secondary plot takes center stage. Illidan was marketed as the main antagonist of TBC and he died in the first major patch. Afterwards Kael’thas and Kil’jaeden take the reigns as the main antagonists (which given the expansions title seems appropriate and should’ve been from the start). After the Battle for Dazar’alor, the AvH conflict takes a backseat to the Azshara / N’zoth stuff. Crucible of Storms in 8.1.5, Eternal Palace in 8.2 and Ny’alotha in 8.3. With the proper ending of the AvH plot happening in 8.2.5 with yet another Siege of Orgrimmar. You could fit WoD in here as well. Given that Gul’daddy was the secondary threat compared to the Iron Horde (I mean 2 raids of WoD focus on the Iron Horde and their allies). Until he took control of said Horde as mentioned earlier.

Focusing on the secondary plot while having some main plot stuff going on in the background is usually the name of the game when it came to middle patches. For example 3.1 focused mainly on Ulduar but gave us the first iteration of the Argent Touranment, which would take center stage a major patch later (3.2). 5.2 was mainly focused on Lei Shen but we still had some faction conflict in it. Mainly the confrontation between the Kirin Tor and the Blood Elves after the death of Shan Bu. 10.1 had Fyrakk take a shadowflame bath but the main focus of the patch was Sarkareth seeking to become the true heir of Neltharion. And of course Undermined had the Dark Heart stuff, where Gallywix thought he was… giving… it to Xal’atath via the Shadowguard only for it to be a con. Heh, the con man got coned.

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dang there’s a lot of tldr in here
personally I love undermined, best patch ever
vanilla peaked at deadmines and retail has peaked with undermines

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This…this is very true on many levels

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Aye, I feel people here never watched a trilogy of movies with one overarching plot or read a trilogy of books with one plot spreading to three books.

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The side plot is better than the main plot, so i’ll allow it

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The main plot about Xal’atath is the Dark Heart and guiding people to the Black Blood. It’s rather consistent. :robot::thought_balloon:

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I agree with Giru here. Since its going to be a trilogy, I believe they are doing mostly set-up right now. Undermine showed us how Black Blood can be directly weaponized and how powerful it is, especially in the hands of goblins, who are known for making things that explode (intentionally or not). It also shows, albeit briefly, what happened to the Dark Heart and hooked the next story point, which will most likely be back to the “main plot”.

Undermine might have felt like a side-quest, but its still very much one that ties back to the main story. The set-up was done, and now I look forward to the main plot.

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Undermine was amazing. And the faction war stuff gave the Zandalari a legitemate reason to hate the alliance now. I need more Goblin things not less.

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Everyone is going to have different views on this. I personally adore Undermine and its story, and would have been extremely annoyed if they blew the first “Goblin Patch” since Cataclysm (and very possibly the last one ever, if we’re being realistic) on a storyline that wasn’t about Goblins.

Beyond that, I think you might just be… wrong?

You’ve declared that Beledar, the big glowy rock in the ceiling over Hallowfall, is the “main plot” of TWW, but… according to who? TWW is about Xal’atath and the various groups that she has manipulated into serving her schemes.

It’s designed from the ground up as a kind of anthology series, with Xal’atath infecting the Earthen, the Arathi, the Nerubians and now the Goblins in turn. She visits each society and identifies leaders who she can sway with promises of power, then we show up and undo her damage. It’s neat because she actually tailors her manipulation to each society, rather than just creating a generic old god cult every time.

That IS the main plot, not big ceiling rock. The Goblins and their society’s troubles are not less relevant to this than the Arathi and theirs.

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I figured he isn’t actually a troll fan considering how he simps for human stuff in every other topic.

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Perhaps you didn’t actually read my topic…? I specifically mentioned that my topic is not about whether anybody is allowed to like what they got. I was describing how it is not the main plot by measure of relevancy/urgency/consistency here in War Within. A side plot also does not mean a bad story…it means something that isn’t presently the most relevant event going on. If you are being chased by a creepy man with a mask and a chainsaw and you and your friend are running through the woods trying not to be killed by him…then your friend mentions that his cousin is having second thoughts about abandoning the import/export job for pursuing photography and wonders if you could give him advice on the phone…the side plot of giving advice to the cousin isn’t “bad” automatically. There could certainly be value there, and you might not want to miss it. But in terms of relevancy/urgency/consistency…the masked chainsaw man is really what you should be focusing on with most of your attention right now. Me saying the Undermined goblin stuff is side plot does not mean I think no time or money or attention should ever be spent on it…rather, it is not the main plot right now. And further, I did say in this very topic if you scroll down a bit to the dazar’alor section…that I think it would have been inordinantly better and more “main plot” if they had made a Goblin Raid patch instead of a dazar’alor raid. Since I consider BFA to have been the “South Seas” expansion, I think Goblins and Undermine would have been perfectly Relevant and Urgent and Consistent right there in the South Seas expansion. That was even a perfect time for Gallywix to have been conspiring with Xal’atath about Azerite and old gods and technology that fails when he needs it, etc.

According to Xal’atath… Beledar was her target that’s what she was doing with the Earthen, that’s what she was doing with the Arathi, that’s what she was doing with the Nerubians. To get at Beledar. So… every faction in that tunnel should be at Beledar, every faction from the surface should be sending people down to Beledar to figure out what it is, what is wrong with it, how to fix it, how to protect it, or if it is a problem…how to deal with it and resolve it. It is objectively the relevant and urgent and consistent main plot. But it is being ignored and abandoned and never addressed or fulfilled.

We’ve been over your failures at pretending to be evil again and again. And your misunderstandings about Warcraft lore races again and again. Fun fact, I had a human character among my many characters during Vanilla WoW that was exalted with the Zandalar Tribe…because, surprise surprise…the Zandalar were neutral with both Alliance and Horde in Vanilla. And when there was a patch in Cataclysm that claimed to be the return of the Zandalari…? They were an enemy of both Alliance and Horde. Turns out, they were not doing what Rastakhan wanted, they were doing what Zul wanted. And when the Zandalari returned again in Mists of Pandaria…? Too bad, that was led by Zul and not Rastakhan yet again. Humans are part of Azeroth, just like the Zandalari are. There isn’t any good reason to be racist like you are.

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what did I miss

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I get that this is mostly your opinion - and that’s fine, but I honestly just have problems with the arguments used for a lot of these, as they seem to be rooted in either not understanding the main plot or thinking that something else would’ve been better (which is fine, but not an example of Main plot/Side plot reversal).

I’m gonna break this down in release order rather than the reversed order its presented in - working my way to UndermineD. Apologies if any of this comes off as rude.

First thing I gotta say feels like a nitpick, but this isn’t “the Uldir patch”. It’s literally the base of the expansion - the thing that sets the groundwork for the themes and narrative threads that we’ll be encountering throughout its patch cycle - that said, I’m not gonna re-cover this everytime this is said about the start of an expansion.

With that in mind, you seem to really misunderstand what BfA’s main plot was - following Sargeras stabbing the planet, Azerite was released. While Magni was concerned about this event and the planet’s safety, Gallywix informed Sylvanas of the new resource - and while we didn’t know about the Jailer’s involvement until later, the usage of Azerite was the catalyst for the “Battle for Azeroth” between the two factions, with this following the already deteriorating relations between them seen in both Legion and the Before the Storm novel.

Uldir as a raid was a conclusion to the Nazmir/Zandalar leveling storyline while introducing MOTHER to the story - a character who’d end up being essential in helping Magni and the heroes of Azeroth save the planet from N’Zoth. In that same vein, both Uldir and Stormsong Valley helped to introduce the Old God plotline as a B/C plot that would later grow to take center stage with each passing patch.

We’d also already known that Azerite was the lifeblood of Azeroth by Blizzcon 2017 - as for why the Chamber of the Heart exists, answering that was far from the biggest priority at the time and will likely come up again at some point over these next three expansions. No expansion has ever revealed the answer to every mystery it presents within its expansion/patch cycle window.

The “Totally out of place faction fighting side plot” was in-place, it being a continuation of the faction-war storyline that even led us to Kul Tiras and Zandalar in the first place, and it followed the narrative of the expansion far better than randomly dropping Undermine into the expansion would’ve. We had no reason to go to Undermine, as the only Goblin that both factions would’ve had interest in stopping at that time was Mogul Razdunk, and we killed him in The MOTHERLODE - a dungeon that was available on launch.

This patch also helped flesh out the growing Old God narrative with the side-raid Crucible of Storms, further setting up N’Zoth as the final boss of the expansion and setting up the plotline of Xal’atath becoming free from the dagger - something that has now become very relevant a few expansions later.

Not too much to say on this one.

Us going to Uldum and the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, and the Horrific Visions were a part of the N’Zoth plotline that had taken center stage by this point. We literally empower the cloak that we use to survive the N’Zoth encounter by doing the Horrific Visions; similarly, the content involving the two legacy zones both heavily tied into the main questline for the patch, with Ra-den becoming a boss in Ny’Alotha and the entrance to the raid being accessible from both locations depending on the invasion happening there.

As for what Ny’alotha is, what the Chamber of the Heart is, etc. - again, not every question gets immediate answers. It took us like 16 years to even see the Titans in game, and even then, we probably won’t know the answers to some of their mysteries from Wrath until The Last Titan. As for the Sword - that was never the expansion’s focus, the fallout of its impact was.

Additionally, this patch also wrapped up the faction conflict and led directly into Shadowlands.

We go to these four afterlives because they are the ones that are the most important to the Shadowlands continuing to function. That said, from the perspective of our characters, we go to Bastion because we’re investigating the Mawsworn Kyrian who took the faction leaders - we go to Maldraxxus to investigate the attack on Bastion - we go to Revendreth to deliver the Primus’ message - and we go to Revendreth because the Heart of the Forest (the artifact used to make the Maw inescapable) is growing weaker due to the Anima Drought, and the Winter Queen wanted us to ask for aid from Sire Denathrius, since he’s said to be an expert at extracting anima.

The “strange illogical side plot npcs” are there to flesh out each zone and their individual plotlines - referring to both their leveling campaigns and their Covenant campaigns. In turn, these stories all tie together to form the bigger narrative of the expansion, as everything from the Forsworn in Bastion to the Drust in Ardenweald tie back to the Jailer and his allies, with the Forsworn being connected directly and the Drust merely capitalizing on Ardenweald’s weakened state.

The wider lore of the Death Knights/Undeath/Helm of Domination is lightly touched on in 9.0, but was elaborated on in the first patch - not everything needs to be fully explained right away. Details about the Night Warrior and Elune are given in the Night Fae Covenant campaign, but this also isn’t an expansion focusing on Elune. What exactly the Arbiter is/was is a mystery that gets explored over the course of the expansion.

None of these should have been or should have taken over the main story, as they are all just supporting details to the main story which revolves around The Jailer and his plans to use the soul of Azeroth to remake reality - plans, which through Sylvanas’ contributions, are literally the reason we even go to the Shadowlands.

Sylvanas and her actions that she did while serving the Jailer are why we went to the Shadowlands - this plotpoint wasn’t resolved within the initial launch of the expansion - it absolutely needed to be addressed here. From what I remember, Korthia was effectively a big hidden library of forbidden knowledge relating to the First Ones and the Shadowlands in general; as for the First Ones, they were the main focus of the next patch - this one was still building up to the reveals we see in Zereth Mortis.

The main plot was entering this realm to stop The Jailer as the final details of his plans were coming into fruition. The appearance of the Brokers who aided us here and acted as our introductory guides to the region was something that was foreshadowed in the Grimoire of the Shadowlands book that predated Korthia by about a week (and likely somewhere in game in either 9.0 or 9.1, since I know Firim was namedropped in 9.1). Everything else was world-building and added mystery - the mysteries of the First Ones (and by extension, the true nature of the Shadowlands) likely won’t become the main focus until the First Ones themselves become more relevant, most likely at some point after The Last Titan.

The expansion literally wouldn’t have much of a conflict if the Primalists didn’t free Raszageth, who in turn, sought to free the other Primal Incarnates. The elemental lords (aside from later, Smolderon) aren’t even immediately relevant to the Dragon Isles - and they’re even less relevant without the “illogical and contrived random cultist groups appearing out of nowhere”. We only went back to Uldaman in an attempt to retrieve a disk bearing Tyr’s memories, as we thought it could help bring the Aspect’s powers back.

This patch narratively served as the conclusion to the story of the Sundered Flame and their leader Sarkareth (which was elaborated on when we returned to the Forbidden Reach), the conclusion to the Black Dragonflight’s story from the base expansion (which was also elaborated on in the Forbidden Reach patch), and the appearance of Void here is for added mystery/worldbuidling and to show that the Black Dragonflight should not be following in Neltharion’s footsteps. Since it isn’t the main plot of the expansion, much of the new Void lore in Aberrus is left as a foreshadowing device for later.

As for how it tied into the main plotline, while the majority of the patch dealt with wrapping up the aforementioned stories, it also served to begin building up Fyrakk as one of the primary antagonists, with him gaining Shadowflame and starting to go too far in the eyes of Vyranoth - ultimately resulting in her joining Alexstrasza and the other Aspects later on.

The “Frivolous and irrelevant fire dragon side plot” is literally the only reason we go to the Emerald Dream - to stop him from burning it and Amirdrassil down. We got Tyr back, but the main focus of the patch was stopping Fyrak - the villain who’d been being built up as the expansion’s final boss since 10.1. Things such as the “lifelands and missing Freya” were never even close to being main focuses of the expansion - the Primal Incarnates and the Aspects getting their powers back were, and this patch resolved that topic for the time being (until Iridikron returns). Not even sure what you mean by “Alexstrasza herself barely treated as side plot and neglected and never resolved” - as her and Vyranoth reuniting, Tyr returning, and the Aspects getting their powers back wrap up all of the lingering threads that come to mind regarding her. The only reason something like the Mother Oathstone was even a concern was that they thought it might return their Aspectral Powers.

The Nerubian forces aiding Xal’atath were a recurring threat in the fall of Dalaran, the Isle of Dorn, and Hallowfall - with us then pushing the fight to Azj’kahet, where we find out that there are Nerubians willing to help us overthrow Queen Ansurek, who’d allied with Xal’atath. It appeared that Xal’atath had intended to distract us with the Nerubains while she targeted Beladar for something - but this hasn’t been revealed yet, because this plan was temporarily thwarted by Alleria.

We meet and aid the Earthen, helping them solve many of their cultural and societal struggles over the course of the Isle of Dorn, The Ringing Deeps, and the max level campaign. Additionally, goblin details are foreshadowed throughout the Ringing Deep and in the Siren Isle minipatch.

The goblin plotline gets expanded and folded into the main story, as Xal’atath employs Gallywix and the Darkfuse to repair the Dark Heart - he does this, but is tricked by Ethereals who appear to take it to K’aresh - much to Xal’atath’s annoyance. We then clear up the loose end of Gallywix’s control of Undermine before leaving the zone. Beladar isn’t the center focus because we aren’t there yet. The expansion is still going and the story hasn’t organically gotten to the point where this is the imminent issue - that’ll probably be the last major content patch of The War Within or it’s equivalent to the Harbinger quests that tied Dragonflight and The War Within together.

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Also Tazavesh. We learn that Cartel Au is a shadow of its former self, with only one known member (whom is our guide in the dungeon). The others just disappeared, never to be seen again. Also the mega dungeon gives us our second experience with First Ones tech. The first being the Guardian boss in Sanctum of Domination.

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I think you missed something here. Amirdrassil was always going to be a major plot thread in Dragonflight. The Ohn’ahran plains leveling campaign sees us stop the primalists from assaulting the Island with a portal to the Emerald Dream on it. Later on in one of the Valdrakken Accord max level campaigns, we foil the Primalists from finding something in the Dream. This time they used trickery to gain access. Disguising themselves as members of the Blue Dragonflight sent by Kalecogs. At the end, Merithra thinks that they were after the seed of Amirdrassil. Something that obviously was correct given what we uncover in 10.1.7.

Honestly anyone who thinks that Amirdrassil was a side quest missed the whole point of those two 10.0 campaigns.

As for Freya and Tyr. Freya hasn’t been seen since Wrath (she wasn’t even in Legion) and Tyr wasn’t reborn until AFTER Fyrakks death but before the celebrations. Based on the dialogue Alexstrasza says.

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And it’s far more compelling, at least as far as I’m concerned.

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at least there’s more to this critique than the incessant whining ive seen from human/elf players going “wtf where’s the elves? where’s the generic fantasy forest/woodland setting we’ve seen 5000 times over?”