Undead Souls in The Maw

Lore Story Forum
63

So the idea is that since undead aren’t responsible for their actions, they shouldn’t be punished for anything - anything - they do.

Deathisfinal has made an excellent case for wiping the Forsaken out entirely. They are literally better off dead, when they are made whole again in an afterlife. Until then, they can’t be trusted to make a rational decision, and if they do something heinous (as they keep doing), they’re not responsible anyway. Better to help them now by destroying the shell that is only tormenting them (“cursed” as Deathisfinal says).

3 Likes
64

I see no fault in this

65

Not what I meant at all. That has never even crossed my mind.

I assume when the souls is back in the Shadowlands that its a pure untainted soul free of any dark necromancy magic that twist the soul.

(Wanted to make sure you didn’t miss my edit)

66

They are still responisable for the actions they did, blizzard hasnt said anything that suggests otherwise

2 Likes
67

You know Anduin put the Alliance leadership in their places the last time that was suggested. He will never allow it. lol

The crux of the OP and my argument.

Edit: You know I’ve been so focused on Priestess Sally going bad because she has missing screws now, but what about serial killer racist Dan who died, resurrected a Forsaken and is now helping the orphanage.

(Stares at Shadowland judge and jury)

68

Kael’thas did not succeed in burning them all, so yes she is.

2 Likes
69

They are still judged the same, the maw is only for people who are pure evil like sylvanas, kael didnt even go there.

1 Like
70

Exactly my point, curse of undeath, missing screws, partially attached souls etc etc none of it is taken into consideration.

71

Why should it, there are people who became undead that didnt go on murderous rampages.

2 Likes
72

Because its not something that sweet ole grandma sally would have done if she wasn’t cursed with undeath, missing screws and all.

73

Yeah not all Forsaken are evil. Some are just sad and lost and trying to keep going. BTS illustrated that. Also, you know, my favorite former forsaken, Leonid Bartholomew is absolutely never going to the Maw. Ever.

2 Likes
74

Some are, and dare I say they weren’t evil while alive nor is it something they would contemplate doing while alive. Something is different. The curse of undeath isn’t a skin disease. If you ask me its the worst curse imaginable in the WoW setting.

2 Likes
75

It’s a logical extension of your argument though. The undead are in torment, their souls are partially attached, and they can only be made whole again in the afterlife. It’s therefore a merciful act to end their torment and send them to that afterlife.

In-game, Anduin ruled that out, probably because there are many Forsaken who aren’t monsters like Sylvanas.

Anyway, to use your example: undead grandma goes on a killing spree. Who is responsible for that, who should be punished? What justice do the victims get?

76

I agree 100%, it could be a merciful act to return them to the grave. Heck it may even save those that my come back on the dark end of the spectrum, especially if they were in WoW heaven chilling with Uther. That would suck huh?

Grandma is directly responsible, but I would suggest helping her fight her demons rather than burning her at the stake. I would also look at ole grandma’s necromancers and trace them it back to a living person.

Edit: What do you think should happen?

77

Out of a the avenues this story could have gone the politics of afterlife death court may be the stupidest. Burn them all. All the souls I just want my purples.

78

Some Forsaken might have been mangled and twisted by dark magic, and I agree with you there.

Sylvanas was not one of them. As per Edge of Night:

    No, she was the same. In death as in life.

I’m pretty sure Sylvanas crossed the point of no return that changed her afterlife from probably Bastion to the Maw by the time she was using her plague on an innocent young girl to test its potency in the Arthas: Rise of the Lich King novel.

3 Likes
79

I’m quite certain Kael’thas despite his willingness to bring a planet burning army to his world wasn’t willing to personally oversee the brutal death of an innocent young girl at his orders…

He is the guy who sits back away from the atrocities done by his orders. He wasn’t bothering(or willing) to witness Anveena be drained but just stood in the Magister’s Terrace’s throne room being all smug and arrogant.

Sylvanas personally oversaw the horrible death of an innocent girl. She showed how cruel she was by personally watching a most horrible act she ordered.

2 Likes
80

I think you could say as well that kael thas wasnt really himself cause of the stuff kill jaedan did to him.

81

To be fair Kael’thas was screwed over by the writers hardcore in BC (much like Illidan was beaten over the head with the villain bat, which they at least fixed in Legion). I’m really hoping they fix Kael’thas in SL. Not expecting him to come prancing back through the afterlife tulips to come back to lead the Blood Elves, but if Revendreth is where prideful/vain (which even before being villain batted Kael was that) souls go with a chance at being ultimately redeemed and go somewhere else, he has a chance.

Also…didn’t it say that when she was killed the first time Sylvanas had a few moments in a peaceful afterlife before Arthas ripped her soul back? With current SL lore it seems she originally was slated to go to Bastion, but as of Edge of Night she’d done so much evil she got sent to the Maw.

2 Likes
82

Yes, right at the beginning of Edge of Night:

    Sylvanas Windrunner drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon. She belongs here. With each recollection, her memory of this place palls. The sound grows distant; the warmth, cooler. The vision takes on the pallor of a half-remembered dream. But with horrific clarity, the memory always ends the same: Sylvanas’s spirit is wrenched away. The pain is so intense it leaves her soul forever torn. The grinning face of Arthas Menethil, with his lopsided smile and dead eyes, leers at her as he pulls her back into the world.

This original afterlife for Sylvanas indeed sounds like Bastion to me:

    Bastion is ordered and purposeful. Souls naturally drawn to service are sent here by the Arbiter to examine their lives, cleanse themselves of their burdens, and work toward a state of virtue so they might ascend to serve the Shadowlands.

Then the description after she throws herself off of Icecrown:

    Darkness

    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner tumbled in a free fall. Not in the physical sense; her body had been obliterated at the foot of Icecrown Citadel. It was her spirit that tumbled, lost, like a rudderless ship in a storm.

    How had she gotten here? She couldn’t remember. Had she been killed by Arthas? Had she committed suicide? Had she been sent to judgment by the Val’kyr? Time was meaningless here. Her whole life seemed not a series of events but a single instant, a pinpoint flash of consciousness in an infinite void.

    She saw only darkness.

    And then she felt—truly felt, for the first time in a long while. She recoiled. In agony.

    Here she was, her spirit once again feeling whole, only to feel it suffer. To feel once more, only to feel abject pain. Cold. Hopelessness.

    Fear.

    There were others in the darkness. Things she didn’t recognize, because nothing so terrible could exist in the world of the living. Claws tore at her, but she had no mouth with which to scream. Eyes looked at her, but she couldn’t look back.

    Regret.

    She sensed a familiar presence. Recognized it. The taunting voice that had once held her in its grasp. Arthas? Arthas Menethil? Here? His essence rushed to her, desperate, then shrank away in horrified recognition. The boy who would be Lich King. Just a scared little blond child, reaping the aftermath of a lifetime of mistakes. If any part of Sylvanas’s soul were not at that moment torn and tormented, she might have even felt—for the first time—the slightest glimmer of pity for him.

    In the grand landscape of all the world’s suffering and all the evils of the infinite, the Lich King was… insignificant.

    Now the others had her. Surrounded her. Gleeful, tormenting, tearing at her consciousness, delighting in her suffering.

    Horror.

    This was to be her eternity: the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish.

Which, well, obviously fits the Maw:

    To be cast into the Maw is to be doomed to a bleak eternity. It is a tumultuous, hopeless land where the vilest souls in the cosmos are imprisoned forever. Should the ancient evil chained here break free, all of reality would be consumed.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/shadowlands

2 Likes