A basic reading like it is true but has nuance?
No, like, we donāt have enough examples of a functional matriarchy to know what it is and what it isnāt. Just being lead by women is not enough, we know this because we know and understand patriarchy. Matriarchy is the inversion of patriarchy.
A matriarchy would have to have a heirarchy that treats men as secondary or expendible compared to women.
Itās not just women in power. Women in power is a very surface level understanding of a matriarchy.
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Isnāt it just a society that prioritizes women over men? Why would we need examples to know that happens if they tell us it is the case?
I donāt think this topic is really a debate or a gender fight, but more of a disagreement on the definition of a matriarchy.
the textbook definition of a 'matriarchy is a āform of social organization in which the mother or oldest female is the head of the family, and descent and relationship are reckoned through the female line; government or rule by a woman or women.ā ā
We donāt see evidence of Kaldorei rule only being passed down through female lines. Yes we saw a Queen Azshara, but there was also a Prince Falandris. For a time Frandral Staghelm was the leader of the Night Elves, until the mantle passed to Tyrande, and she may pass the mantle of leader on to Shandris one day, but there is no lore or law stating that Kaldorei leadership must be passed down through female descendants only.
I think a lot of people only focus on this side of the definition: which is a pop culture definition: 'A popular definition, according to James Peoples and Garrick Bailey, is āfemale dominanceā ā Which is falsely mistaken for feminism or female empowerment.
Thereās some aspects of matriarchy in Kaldorei society, especially in itās military and religion. People are not wrong when they say that the Sentinels and the Priestesses of Elune are matriarchal in nature, as those roles are restricted only to women, but we are not talking about subsections within Kaldorei society, we are talking about the society as a whole, which I do not believe is completely matriarchal.
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I would think that youād have a hard time finding examples of institutionalised reduction of men to a subordinate gender which is the defining trait of a matriarchy.
In a real matriarchy, Jarod Shadowsong wouldnāt have been able to just walk in and take over the Night Elf defense without at least someone objecting to the idea of " a mere man" taking charge.
And with all of the hype about the Sentinels being female, everyone seems to forget the not so all-female Moonguard was considered a fighting force of higher prestige in the Pre-Sundering days as were the forces commanded by Lord (Iām very much a guy) Ravencrest. who used to have a statue commenrating him in Azshara before I guess the Cataclysm destroyed it?
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Probably because WoW doesnāt talk about it much. But some people are talking like despite lore commentary that it was never the case.
That has been done.
Not only have used the term Matriarchal to describe Kaldorei society, but we know explicitly why they are.
Kaldorei are a Theocracy. The Faith in Elune came in to be the foundation of Kaldorei culture after the fall of the Empire, with the Sisterhood taking up every responsibility of Government. Every single prominent figure in Kaldorei society was or is a Priestess of Elune. Tyrande, Maiev, Shandris. Even Malfurion is a essentially a Priest for her Son, and evokes the name of Elune with reverence as his chief deity in several voice lines.
With this in mind, we -know- just how important religion is in Kaldorei society. And we -know- that even now, that the majority of Sentinels are still women as a branch of the Sisterhood. And we -know- that the upper Echelons of the Sisterhood of Elune is still Female exclusive. The inclusion of men has only applied to Sentinels and lower ranked Priests.
We are -told- this is because it is still a common held belief in Kaldorei society that women are truer to the form of Elune and thus are closer to her. It is believed men are incapable of knowing Eluneās heart to the same capacity a woman can, purely because Elune is, in fact, a woman.
It is called a -Sisterhood- not just to describe the relationship with others within the clergy, but also to describe the relationship with Elune herself. Kaldorei society is built upon a religion that worships women and the feminine.
That is why they are matriarchal. Blizzard has made it more clear than most other aspects of their lore. Saying Kaldorei are not matriarchal is like saying Dwarves donāt dig mines because a Dev never tweeted about it.
I am tired of explaining this to the same people over and over again.
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I understand what you are saying and you are not wrong about the religion of Elune being matriarchal. But a matriarchal religion is not the same as a matriarchal society.
Matriarchal societes are characterized by three main key components, matrilineal, matrilocal, and matrifocal. To be a matriarchal society, 1) Matriilineal: leadership must always pass through the female line only. Lastnames are motherās last names. The only genelogical record that is kept is matrilineal. 2) The family resides in the wife/motherās house, or near her parents. Anthropologically, in some current matriarchal tribes, Men all sleep together in a āBachelor hutā and women and children have their own homes. It doesnāt matter which men are the biological parents of which children as all men help raise the villiage children. This is tied to 3) Matriofocal, which men have absolutely no power in this society, women are the heads of the household, they are the ones who make the rules.
We donāt see any of the above happening in Kaldorei society as Drahalina pointed out.
It is when the society is built upon the religion.
And we are explicitly told it is a Matriarchal society. And we are told that is a commonly held belief that women are superior, in a divine sense, to men. When women dominate all the leadership roles.
This is cut and dry. Kaldorei are matriarchal.
A frustrating thing with all this conversation about what a matriarchy *must be is that real-world societies that anthropologists have defined as matriarchal would not meet this dystopian Story Forum-specific definition of what a matriarchy must be.
The word has a definition. It is used in scholarly papers as that definition. But for some strange reason, here it must also include the absolute subjugation of men to qualify?
Like, some of yāall are even letting real world patriarchal societies get off light when you say a matriarchy could never and would never let women hold any kind of political or military positions.
Itās frustrating and weird.
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See, I donāt understand why it has to be a matriarchy, itās better being a fair egalitarian society, where both men and women have an equal opportunity.
I think the Night Elves being a matriarchal society, to some, is a power fantasy.
This canāt be a fair forum if we say some power fantasies are better than others.
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But, see, it is matriarchal, by itās definition. Saying itās not because something else is better doesnāt change what it is, what it has continually been described as and what it has been shown to be.
Iām not saying I prefer night elves to be matriarchal. That is not a question even been asked. Iām saying they are matriarchal, because weāre told they are, shown they are, and what we are told and shown matches the actual definition of the word āmatriarchyā.
I donāt like the Horde being portrayed as warmongering, bloodthirsty savages who forsake honor as soon as someone says āhey, letās go kill this Alliance city over thereā. I prefer a Horde who are trying to uphold honor and all that.
But just because I want the Horde to be that doesnāt make the Horde that.
Saying I prefer something doesnāt change what is.
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I asked if it was a good thing, though it mostly got overlooked.
You did.
Iām arguing what the word actually means as opposed to the very strange non-definition that people have been using.
Whenever I point out that this actual, real definition matches what we see in night elf society, I get this equally strange response of making a value judgment in favor of matriarchy over egalitarianism.
Iām not making value judgments. Iām stating a wordās actual meaning, and how arbitrarily assigning extra criteria to that definition that are not present in the definition makes the entire debate frustrating.
If you were specifically asking me if I prefer a matriarchal night elven society over an egalitarian one, then address that question to me. I assumed you were asking in general whether matriarchies are good or bad.
Ideally, if this was a real place and these were real people, sure.
But itās not. And such things have not been accomplished globally even in the real world. You have cultures that are more egalitarian than others. You have religions and even religious sects that are more restrictive than others. You have nations that restrict rights on basis of race and gender even in the modern era.
In any fantasy setting, if you fill it with cultures that are all equal, all fair, all unproblematic, itās boring. There is no variety. There is nothing left to challenge you. And it is just not realistic ontop of that. Such a world would not feel immersive and lived in.
If you donāt like the fact that Kaldorei are matriarchalā¦ then donāt play one. Itās real easy.
Edit: And not every issue is meant to be a problem to be fixed by the player character either.
Coming in and telling an entire culture of people that they way they have lived their life, willingly, for the last 10,000 years, is wrong because -you- personally donāt like it, doesnāt make you a hero. It makes you a Tyrant.
And in the case of the Kaldorei, the most peaceful time in their history was during the Long Vigil, before outsiders came in and decided it was time to enlighten these primative forest people.
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Iām aware of the argument. I was just pointing it out.
I donāt know where it started, but it seemed like some people prior in the thread were claiming people who thought Night Elves werenāt a matriarchy because they were āsensitive men with egosā or something. So I think thereās been some mixed messages on motivation accusations.
Again, not even saying you indicated that or that started it. But it seemed like thereās been a back and forth of those sort of accusations.
Thatās fair. Because good and bad can differ from being a desirable story aspect. Do you prefer the Night Elves stay a matriarchy?
My answer would be yes for various reasons.
Yes, because that is the truth of it. Blizzard has seldom made something so clear as Kaldorei Matriarchy, and yet the same Male, non-Nelf players want to argue.
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Iād prefer it, yes. Thereās an unspoken caveat that Iād want different, better writers to handle this, but now I just spokened it, so here we are.
Iād prefer it, because I prefer societies that are imperfect. I liked Stormwind better when a black dragon could manipulate corrupt nobles into not paying stonemasons, because it leads to better stories. I prefer an Orgrimmar that is having a problem with Burning Blade infiltrators around the outskirts, recruiting people into their ranks and the Warchief is torn between killing them to end the threat and giving all of his people a place to belong. I see more story fodder in imperfect governments than perfect ones, and the matriarchal night elves had some interesting potential that sadly never got exploited.
This does not mean I think matriarchies are inherently better, of course. But flawed forms of government have better story potential than flawless ones.
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I understand that.
But I also think the Cdevs called it a matriachy without actually knowing what a matriarchy is, I think the reason itās called a matriarchy is because women have a much higher role than they would in a patriarchy. Also I think in the 2000ās when this lore was made, it was during the time of āgirl power feminsimā aka 2nd wave feminism. Where just having strong female characters was enough to be conflated with women having equal power, at that same time this game had Malfurion saying āHush, Tyrandeā a clear example of male dominance, when she tried to state her opinion on Illidan and why he should not be trusted (She was right, he ended up bringing the Demon Soul straight to Sargeras in exhcange for power)
This game has never been kind to women, or even tried to portray women as equals, for a long time it had only two token female leaders, Tyrande and Sylvanas, (edit before Zerde comes here to point out jaina, I meant playable faction leaders) and they both still had to be loomed over by a male figure, Malfurion and Varimathras, respectively. Are you going to defend those Cdevs as understanding what female empowerment actually means? Iām not.
But I guess, the Night Elves had sentinels, so they were the singular best option if you wanted a society that projected female empowerment. (but you could also argue that the Forsaken had an equally matriachal religion in itās idol worship of Sylvanas)
I was just pointing out thereās been a question of motivation on both sides.
And if they are on a female elf, that doesnāt count because it is either an alt or they arenāt really a fan.