YES world buffs (raids are faster, and it’s an incentive to play well and avoid death to keep your buffs, it adds tons of flavor to the world, gives reasons to visit older content, builds server community, supports economy around buffing activity)
And NO CHRONOBOON either. If you are buff logged on your main, play a damn alt.
“But I want to play my druid!” <— then level a 2nd Druid. You’ll have time to do it while your main is buff logged. I have two Rogues on TBC so that I can PvP with anybody on my 2nd Rogue, when arena teammates for my 1st Rogue aren’t online.
“I don’t want to go through the work of world buffing each week” <— join or create a guild with other people that share this mindset. There are many of you out there so join forces and make it happen.
“But then I won’t parse optimally!” <— Other players shouldn’t be held back so that you can get the same parse you would have otherwise gotten, but make it look better on a relative basis compared to others. Also, most of you are too hyperfocused on the parsing rat race and it’s blinding you to the fact that there is so much more to the game.
“But World Buffs make raids too easy” <— 1. Raid encounter difficulty can be increased with mechanics. Removing WBs / nerfing player damage doesn’t make encounter mechanics harder, it just makes raids take much longer. There are better ways to increase difficulty. 2. WBs add an extra challenge to speed clear, because death becomes so much more punishing beyond the time cost of getting rezzed.
You will hate these facts, but you will know that they are true because none of you will be able to provide a strong counter argument to any point, because a strong counter argument does not exist.
nobody should be required to juggle world buffs to raid. it’s that simple.
i don’t feel the need to write an essay on this debunking your ‘arguments’ because my side has already won. so enjoy wasting your time.
Nobody is required to juggle world buffs to raid. Your “problems” are your own creation.
Weak, easily and obviously refuted argument. Do better clown. Oh wait you can’t, because a strong argument on your side doesn’t exist. It’s not there for you to find even if your brain was capable of logical reasoning. You might as well argue that 2 + 2 = 5.
Why are you confusing difficulty with duration, when these are entirely separate concepts?
And if you have a guild of like minded individuals, like I did in classic, then none of the content is going to be challenging with or without WBs. It’s not like guilds got all the way through AQ40 or Naxx on the first night with 0 wipes and defeated C’thun or Kel’thuzad because of WBs. They wiped here and there due to a dumb mishap on trash or somebody failing polarity shift, lost their buffs, and beat those bosses anyway week 1 anyway. Ergo it is obvious that lack of WBs will not be a significant difficulty increase, because those bosses were easily defeated without WBs already.
What is your argument here? That glitches shouldn’t exist (how is that relevant?) or raids shouldn’t hold members accountable for causing wipes? Is your argument that removing WBs is good because it makes wipes less punishing? Lol.
I personally think thousands of people spamming “/shout LATE LATE LATE LATE LATE” two minutes before the scheduled drop is pretty flavorful and funny, yeah.
Personally, I solo cleared DM every week for my guild. Often multiple times a week to give people more opportunities to catch it. Had a blast doing it. I wasn’t playing a Hunter either (I’ve never played one, actually) so it was definitely a fun and rewarding challenge.
Personally as an Alliance player I had a blast leveling up a Horde Priest on this account to spy on Horde buff schedules and try to sneak my Alliance main into Orgrimmar to steal their buff and escape with it without getting purged or killed. Working with other Alliance players to pull this off was awesome, and I know the Horde had fun too when they found out about it and tried to shut it down. Then it became a fun cat and mouse game of scouting out different safe spots (because of course they started sending people to the obvious ones). Those are some of my most memorable experiences from classic, now that I think about it.
I also observed guilds working together to run alts through MC and BWL and ZG specifically to get extra heads to drop, working together to coordinate drops at times where more people could get it to reduce wasteful re-drops, etc.
Cool, sounds like your guild worked together to get it done.
Personally I put a lot of effort into helping my guildies safely get their buffs, and of course it was free of charge for my guildies. I made some nice gold profits too, selling these services to others out side of guild as well. So whether you personally participated in the World Buff economy is not relevant to the point that a World Buff economy existed.
BTW, full stop, clearning DM:T by myself, without a hunter, and having an incentive to do so to provide a valuable service for my guild, was far more interesting and challenging than any of the raids with or without WBs.
I don’t like the Chronoboon Displacer. I am team #nochanges. Chronoboon Displacer is a poor change designed for players who somehow can’t figure out that they can play an alt when their main is buff logged?? I still don’t get it.
That wasn’t my argument, see above. I don’t like the Chronoboon Displacer.
Your argument is still a bad one because WBs aren’t the reason that classic servers are dead. Those servers were thriving with WBs. They died when TBC released because players followed the hype to the new content. So World Buffs obviously have nothing to do with those servers dying. It’s honestly amazing to witness such a poor display of logic. Please try coming up with an argument which is less obvious to immediately refute.
I understand you want world buffs, but yeah, the answer truthfully is “Classic WoW is waiting for you”. Them upping the raids and disabling world buffs will actually bring some challenge back to the raids, instead of people steam rolling them the moment the patch goes live, within the first hour or two. Hell, they even said they are adding some abilities that were removed from bosses back as well.
World buffs trivialized content and made certain specs STUPIDLY STRONG.
Is not difficult. Maybe you are playing with much worse players than I played with?
Potions, dark runes, proper mana management. Occasionally my guild would wipe to something dumb. People didn’t start going oom on all of the rest of the encounters for that night once we lost WBs. Your logic doesn’t hold up to the most basic of inspection, it’s like your argument is based on this false and easily refuted idea:
People had WBs in classic. 2. Classic raids were easy. 3. Therefore WBs are the reason classic raids were easy.
The problem: people had WBs in classic, but they didn’t have WBs at all times. Guess what, the raids were still easy when your guild lost WBs lmao. Sorry, try again with a better argument please. Your arguments are so easy and obvious to conclusively disprove.
See above. Healing Naxx didn’t suddenly become difficult because some idiot failed polarity shift or chained C’thun’s eye beam. That happens from time to time and… yup, still super duper easy to come back and kill it on the next try without buffs.
Notice how I thoroughly and systematically refute every single one of your points, line by line, with facts and logic, while you are left with no response except to one single line.
You’ve implicitly admitted defeat on every single other point. It went like: 1. you offer up some weak argument → 2. I easily refute it → 3. You move on to something else because you can’t refute my refutation.
You were only capable of responding to one thing, and your response was super weak and easy for me to pick apart once again (line by line).
You’ve basically lost at this point, and boy was that quick.
But in case you harbor delusions that you can still win this argument, you need to address the following points which you skipped over because you’ve got nothing to say:
Already refuted, see above:
The raids will be steam rolled with or without WBs. I already answered this with a counter argument so strong that nobody will be able to address it. See above, higher up in my current post.
EDIT: self quoting to show you exactly where I already destroyed this pitiful attempt at logic:
And:
OK, onto your next point:
I hate to break it to you buddy, but this is not going to make Molten Core difficult all of a sudden lol.
Already addressed this. Honestly your logic is so bad ROFL.
TBC killed classic servers. WBs had nothing to do with it. This is so obvious it shouldn’t even need to be pointed out, lol.
Classic was a massively popular success with World Buffs. It’s not like Blizzard added WBs at the end of p6 and classic died lmao. World Buffs were there all along. And Classic population instantly dropped by 99.9% the second that TBC released lol. ← you will never be able to refute this argument because it’s based on obvious and undeniable facts. Which is the reason that you aren’t even going to try: what you will do next is change the subject because there is zero path to victory here on this line of attack and everybody knows it, so changing the subject is the only possible way for you to continue pretending that you aren’t losing this argument on every front.
I don’t care if it fits your narrow definition of “difficult”. i find killing MC bosses without world buff cheese fun. it’s way more fun than killing them in like 20 seconds. if you like world buffs, we already have MANY servers available to you. that’s all that needs to be said.
Only the players care about speed clears - the game proper doesn’t have an opinion on the matter. No one cares except people who think speed clears are something worth striving for.
Im not against WBs - theyre supposed to be this cool extra little bonus - so Im fine as viewing them as that but to keep tying them into raiding like it was dev intent instead of player crutch isnt really making an argument in their favor.
A boss going from living for roughly 1 minute up to 2 to 3 minutes will actually put more stress on mana classes/consumables/etc. Might be artificial difficulty to some people, but it would still make the fight a “fight” instead of just feeling like a trash pull.
Oooh, you’re doing slightly better with this one! I’m quite honestly surprised.
However, many people are bringing up “increased challenge”. Whether or not that is your point of view personally, it is obviously incorrect and easily disproven. Because raid groups did exist in classic that didn’t use WBs, or lost WBs after a random wipe, and the encounters were still super duper easy for those groups.
Glad we could agree on that point, that “increased challenge” is a poor argument for WB removal.
That’s personal preference, and while your personal preference is valid you are probably in the minority on that one. I enjoy raiding MC when it goes by fairly quickly though. It’s a raid where you can pretty much completely turn your brain off, have a beer, and joke around with your guildmates. That’s fine, but I don’t need MC to have a reason to goof around with my friends so I like it when we can get in, get our goals accomplished, hopefully see a binding, or band of accuria, or onslaught girdle, or ACLGs, and then move on to the next goal.
Honestly, well done. This is a better argument than anybody has yet put forward otherwise. Unfortunately it’s still pretty week, because it’s a subjective matter of personal preference, and my side still comes out ahead there, because: with WBs in the game, players and raid groups and guilds are free to decide whether or not they will use them, so both your personal preference and mine are satisfied. However with no WBs, obviously there isn’t a choice, so only your personal preference is satisfied. Therefore, leaving the WBs in is a clearly superior design because it satisfies both preferences, while taking them out satisfies only one preference.
We are back to the super weak, obviously and trivially refuted arguments again. Classic servers are completely dead. For reasons that have everything to do with TBC and nothing at all to do with WBs.
This is not quite true. I think it’s obvious that many of the people who have strong anti-WB opinions, are not in speed clearing guilds. I think there’s a weird bit of psychology in play here, where even though they have the choice to form a raid group that doesn’t use WBs, they can’t avoid comparing themselves to others (which is 100% their own fault) who do use WBs, so even though their own performance is exactly the same whether or not they use WBs, they feel worse about it based on what someone else is doing (even though they shouldn’t).
So I think it’s more likely to be about their individual parse than it is to be about their guild’s clear time. And again the sad thing is, their parse, their own personal dps, or even their guild’s time for that matter, would be exactly the same whether or not somebody else in some other raid has WBs. So if they were competing only for their own personal best it wouldn’t be an issue. But it’s their psychological need to compare themselves to others that makes them feel bad (for some reason? it’s kinda sad tho) about not using WBs (even though they are 100% free to do so!) in a world where others are using them. It’s pretty pitiable, honestly.
That’s cool and I agree basically 100%. I haven’t appealed to “developer intent” with regards to my pro-WB argument, in fact I specifically said that it shouldn’t matter in another thread:
Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful contribution to the conversation.
Let’s be honest though. We all know it’s still not going to be hard for the vast majority of raid groups. We already know this from classic. Some guilds raided without WBs. Others raided with WBs generally, but still lost them sometimes to wipes. It happens. I was in a very strong guild and we still had mistakes sometimes, which happens when you’re relying on 40 people to execute their job.
And even without WBs, the raid encounters in classic were very, very easy.
Furthermore, “increased difficulty” isn’t a strong argument in favor of WB removal in classic even if it was an actually significant increase (which we already have direct evidence that it isn’t).
Because Classic isn’t a game that people play for raid difficulty. It has the least difficult raids of any version of WoW that exists.
Because Classic shouldn’t be overly designed around raids and raiding. There is so much more that WoW has to offer, any many people came to classic specifically to escape the larger WoW community’s obsessive hyperfocus on raiding as the only thing that “matters” (whatever that means) to the exclusion of all else, and to recapture the magic of an outdoor world that actually feels vast, and wide open, and threatening, not to mention a storyline where the world of Azeroth itself is the main character instead of Sylvanas or Arthas or some other poorly written, larger than life NPC.
If WBs were so well loved then wouldn’t those servers not be empty? Maybe WBs didn’t chase people away but nobody cared to stick around for them and aren’t longing for them to be in the new servers. You’ll just have to get over the fact that they won’t be there; there’s nothing to argue, it’s already done. You’re choices are to play in Classic if you really need WBs or playing on a private server ¯_(ツ)_/¯.
Why would I need a counter argument for anything you said? Blizzard has dictated that there will be no world buffs, this entire post is just a way to cope with that. We anti world buffers won, you lost. Get over it.
