I was simply refuting your absurd claim that difficulty and duration are “entirely separate concepts.”
Let me spell it out for you. . . WBs=Faster Kill=Avoiding Mechanics and Healer OOM=More Difficulty. See how I completely annihilated your argument and exposed your fallacious claims for all to see?
In any event, it doesn’t matter troll, since WBs are gonzo along with your fast kills.
Good luck and have a great weekend! 
The person trolling is the one calling names while adding nothing to the conversation and avoiding to provide any counter argument or refutation to any point they disagree with. In other words: burying your head in the sand in order to avoid engaging with logic and facts which are uncomfortable for you to face.
What I am doing is the opposite of trolling; that is, engaging with the opposing viewpoints and providing counter arguments based on facts, experience, and logical deducation. You should try it some time.
Obviously WBs didn’t chase people away. Classic was hugely popular and had WBs the entire time. It died immediately when TBC was released and WBs had nothing to do with it. There is no “maybe” involved, it’s open and shut.
Blizzard has in the past changed their direction based on player feedback. I am free to provide feedback, as are you. I am free to criticize design decisions with which I disagree, as that is one purpose of these forums.
BTW, “X is the design, deal with it” is not an effective counter argument to “Y would be a better design than X”. Obviously X is the design, this thread criticizing X wouldn’t exist otherwise. Everybody knows that X is the design. Nobody is stating that X isn’t the design, that isn’t the argument. The argument is that Y would be better. “X is what is going to happen” is not a counter argument to “Y would be better than X”.
0 (original difficulty) * 2 (increase in difficulty) still equals 0 (difficulty after WBs are removed). LOL, we already know this because people did these raids already in classic, without WBs on many occasions, and they were not difficult.
It is not established at all that more difficult raids would be better for classic. Some think that, others disagree. That is a subjective matter of preference. What is not subjective is the fact that classic raids without WBs are still easy for most players and raid groups. There is an abundance of evidence. Plenty of groups wiped, lost their buffs, and still beat the bosses. Some groups didn’t bother to get buffs in the first place and still beat the bosses.
It’s funny that you exude sarcastic, insincere friendliness while accusing me of trolling.
I have remained calm throughout this entire thread, and consistently focused on facts. It’s clear from the behavior of others, including yourself, that they have a strong emotional reaction against World Buffs, which is why you engage with toxicity instead of debate.
If you had stronger arguments, you wouldn’t need to rely on toxicity and trolling and “this is how it’s going to be now stop talking about it!!!11 shut up before Blizzard reads this and changes their minds!!!11” instead of thoughtful and in depth debate on issues of game design. It’s obvious you’re coming from a place of insecurity rather than confidence in the strength of your point of view.
FWIW though, I am having an outstanding weekend. I moved into the new house which I recently purchased, set up my beautiful new home office and gaming room, found out I’m getting a nice raise at work, just enjoyed a relaxing cup of tea with my girlfriend for the first time in our beautiful new back yard, and I’m visiting my dad tomorrow to watch sports. And I’m having a discussion on game design, which is a topic I enjoy thinking about and discussing, which is still enjoyable to me even if the quality of the other participants is… quite lacking this time around. Life is quite good indeed.
Anecdotal evidence only but I came to Classic with 20 vanilla veterans with the idea that we were gonna old school this thing.
We were unable to recruit enough people to field an old school progression raid team with any kind of consistency. If I had to describe it Id say we geared up about 2 40 mans worth of players so they could join speed clearing WB guilds - so they can complain about not being about being able to play the game aka raid log, lol.
We ended up allying with another guild to do 40 man content - they too were heavy into the WB thing but tolerated us because they needed bodies. Eventually, as a few of my old nilla buds fell by the wayside, they brought more people to raids and got to call the shots about how they were being run.
Well, after my old GL/RL/MT found out he couldnt raid tank with a shield on he pulled the plug and took everyone else with him. From that point on I never saw another raid team or guild that didnt use WBs in some way unless it was a late night ZG pug.
So while in theory its possible to form a raid that doesnt use or place an emphasis on WBs, people were all too tied into their meta min/max to really do anything else - even RFK pugs I did on alts would balk if we had an off spec player healing or tanking if not quit the group altogether.
Heck, even in the blue thread about mastery realms there were like 100 posts whining about WBs not being a thing for raiding - these people obviously care about something else other than knocking down ancient content with friends.
Fresh is going to be world buffless. Deal with it.
No world buffs please.
Not what this thread is about. I’m here to debate game design, which is a topic that interests me, regardless of what ultimately happens in the end. I’m not going to be emotionally affected by this. If Fresh has no WBs, I won’t play it. Life goes on and I’ll be just fine enjoying other games. I believe it is a worse design though, and I’m enjoying elaborating on the many reasons why.
This is not a petition thread, and petition threads are against the forum ToS. Try adding to the conversation by providing arguments in favor or against.
Why do you prefer no WBs? That makes for a more interesting and worthwhile forum post.
and I’m here to make sure blizz understands that most people don’t want world buffs. We will bury your opinions under ours because in the end they will cater to us.
Do we need more of a reason than what Blizzard has said themselves? “The original release of WoW Classic was made to re-create the difficulty and challenge of patch 1.12 from the original World of Warcraft release. While we strived to bring a faithful re-creation of that release, many raid encounters turned out to be easier than the first time around—players simply were more experienced and prepared, and patch updates greatly increased player power.”
Besides them trivializing already easy content, they aren’t fun to manage whatsoever.
What are the reasons why you want WBs removed?
It would be more effective to convince your opponent and convince any non-participant readers, by providing counter arguments based on evidence, logic, and game design principles, rather than trying to shout down any viewpoints that you do not agree with.
Trivializing already trivial content you mean? Molten Core is never going to be challenging, and it’s farcical to pretend otherwise.
I personally find them fun to manage. That’s a matter of subjective opinion.
However, allowing them is a superior game design, because it satisfies both opinions. I am free to raid with WBs, and you are free to raid without WBs. Removing WBs is an inferior design because it satisfies only one preference, therefore it satisfies a strictly smaller group of players. That is an objective fact, not a subjective opinion.
Not true at all. Blizz is a business. If the majority of customers demand something they will probably do it. Logic doesn’t matter here. Your arguments mean nothing.
This argument always amazes me. Sure, I can decide to not raid with WBs. But 99% percent of guilds will expect you to get them and ask you “why is your dps or hps not keeping up with sweatybill” who has every single WB possible at all times. Deny it all you want but you know it became the norm and the meta. Period. I won’t be saying anymore to continue to bump your thread. I’ve explained why I feel they’re making the right choice and I’m glad they did it.
Go back to Retail.
And before you say, “But there are no World Buffs in retail”, I’ll respond to you. It’s not the feature, it’s the mentality. It’s not about what you want. What you find fun. What you find better. It’s not about you. It’s about what the game was.
And the best part about this “change”? It possibly opens the door to the unknown. There is no flow chart, nothing to google, nothing. It’s my hope that things are completely different where people have to play the game and figure things out for once. Guilds get to start with what they feel is the right comp. They may turn out to be right or wrong. Mages may turn out to be mid tier dps because of lack of mana. Who knows. Warlocks might be top tier. Either way, people need to adapt. And that’s what makes a game.
In the fighting game community we had a term for all you flow chart players that are so scared of doing things unknown, unable to adapt, unwilling to learn new things. We called them scrubs. You’re a scrub.
Let Classic keep the dignity it deserves.
If the majority wants to play without World Buffs, why would you feel the need to – in your own words – shout down opposing viewpoints, and intentionally avoid engaging in logic and debate? If you are so confident in the outcome, why are you engaging with this thread as if you feel threatened by it?
Additionally, if the anti-WB viewpoint is so overwhelmingly strong that pro-WB has no chance of victory – you’ve stated that your victory is inevitable, after all – then why is it not possible for you to simply form guilds that don’t use WBs? Heck, the anti-WB community could even pick servers to congregate on where you could not only reject the use of WBs, but actively disrupt anybody who tries to use WBs on the server.
Oh? But I thought anti-WB represents the majority of players, as claimed by so many people already in this thread? If most players are anti-WB, then why will “99% of guilds” require them? It’s clearly contradictory.
Yes, a majority of players used WBs in classic. Maybe the anti-WB viewpoint is not as common as you think. Maybe you are in fact a small but extremely vocal forum minority. Hmmmmm.
Says the guy who feels pressured to get WBs to compare his parse to somebody else.
/mic drop.
Since you’re trying to imply that I’m not a true classic player (that’s what “go back to retail” means, right?), let me point out: if you were a true classic player, you’d enjoy the game at your own pace without feeling the need to rush against others. Then you wouldn’t care whether or not somebody else’s raid uses WBs.
So, go back to retail.
P.S. I don’t play retail. I have zero interest in that. Less than zero, frankly.
P.P.S. #nochanges
Sounds like a vocal minority of players demanding no WBs, because deciding for themselves not to use them isn’t sufficient, they must compare their parses to other players, and therefore other players must also be denied WBs or else your parse will look worse by comparison.
The irony of a toxic, screaming, immature, demand making player accusing someone else of “retail mentality” when you are the one demanding a change to the game… that’s pretty rich. And the fact that the only reason you demand the change, is so that you can be more favorably compared to others in parsing, well… The irony is really too much!
This is flaming and it detracts from the already poor quality of this debate. It’s also against the forum rules and will get you a temporary ban. I’m reporting your post as a warning to other players, engage with a higher quality of discourse, or else. There is no place for your toxic attitude here.
Agreed. I am team #nochanges and I have been all along. Never wavered in it. /drops mic again.
Thank you for your thoughtful and reasonable and intellectually honest contribution to this thread. I’m sorry that you had a negative experience trying to find like minded players in classic.
The thing is, if the voices on this forum are to be believed, then you should have no difficulty at all finding like minded players who don’t want to use WBs. It’s been stated many, many times in this thread that players who don’t want to use WBs are an overwhelming, insurmountable majority. And yet…
So what is true then?
The group who is vehemently opposed to WBs is actually much smaller, they are only a vocal forum minority, OR
It’s actually true that most players don’t want to use WBs, but the problem is that these players aren’t capable of enjoying the game for its own sake and competing for their own personal best or just enjoying the raid with their friends, instead they are only capable of enjoying the game by comparing parses to other players (i.e., retail mentality to the max) and they want to prevent anybody from using WBs as a tool to speed clear or parse, so that they feel better about their own preference for not using them (which given their now revealed min/max mentality, can’t be explained by anti-min/max mentality, and therefore must be explained by laziness or the feeling that they can’t keep up).
Now, clearly you also understand that something is directly contradictory about the 2 most common anti-WB arguments that are emerging here, and it seems you believe that my 2nd explanation to resolve the contradiction is the correct one. You basically said as much: “people were all too tied into their meta min/max to really do anything else” (***)
Here’s the rub, if the problem is that raiding without WBs feels bad in a game where WBs are out there, that’s due to min/max retail mentality, and that is a problem of those players, that is of their own creation. Agreed 100%. Of all uncomfortable truths about world buffs, that one is the most uncomfortable of all, so much so that it’s taken us over 20 posts in this thread for it to even come to light even though every single person here also knows that it is obvious.
And furthermore: removing WBs will not remove that mentality. We all know that your RFK PuG experience is going to be the same even with WBs removed. This is a problem that the game designers CANNOT solve for this problem is the creation of the players and only the players can destroy it as easily as they created it.
Now speaking again on principles of game design, I do not believe in protecting players from their own lack of self control and their own insecurity and need to constantly compare themselves to others. I don’t suffer from these problems, and I have no sympathy (and a bit of disgust, frankly) for the players that do. Their problems are entirely their own responsibility and their own creation, and will not be solved by removing WBs.
(***) Did you chuckle as much as I did, when that other guy told me to “go back to retail” for the reasons of 1. asking for changes to the game (which is the opposite of what I’m doing, since I’m team #nochanges and he wants a big change) and 2. being a min/maxer (which is exactly the reason he feels he can’t raid without WBs in a world where WBs exist and someone else could use them, LOL)
Because it makes me feel good.
I’m not addressing the rest of your point because I’m not debating you, I’m telling you your opinions are buried by us and will not matter.
You openly admit that you aren’t here for constructive discussion. You behave as if my point of view is threatening to you, but you project false security in saying that you’re trying to “bury it” not because it’s threatening, but because being antagonistic makes you “feel good”.
This is called “trolling” and is against the forums ToS. I have reported your post as an example to others that they should engage in better discourse by debating with facts, logic, an open and curious mind, and positive intent. Enjoy your forum vacation.
as someone else said, you write way too much for the poor trolling you’re doing.
work on your form
I don’t need to troll when I can defeat my opponents in honorable, well intentioned debate, using evidence and reason.
The best thing about it is that, the worst thing that can happen (“losing” the debate) means I learn something new and change my mind according to new evidence. That is actually a positive outcome, and that is the worst thing that can happen when you approach a debate with curiosity, reason, and positive intent.
That sounds like a lot of projection. Are you that upset that world buffs are not going to be a thing that you feel the need to lash out like that?
Who is the one lashing out? Let’s review your previous post:
Projection indeed.
Feel free to change your approach and engage with positive intent, an open mind, and well formed arguments based on evidence and reason. What are you so afraid of – changing your mind because of new evidence? That’s a good thing, not something you should fear.
You can keep bumping my thread with your attempts at derailment, but I will never fall for it.
We can go back and forth 100 posts or more if you like and I’ll spend the entire time calmly using evidence and reason and quoting back at you my strongest unaddressed central arguments as well as your prior open admission that you’re here to be disrespectful, disruptive, and bury opposing viewpoints while doing everything possible to avoid an actual discussion.
But to do so would be helping my cause, as you’d not only bump the thread, you’ll continue giving me opportunities to show why my side is the one of calm and respectful debate based on logic and evidence and from a position of confidence, while your side is the one of insecurity and derailment.
The fact is, if you had a strong counter argument, you would have made it by now instead of trying to derail the thread “to bury the opposing viewpoint without engaging in any real debate, because it makes me feel good”. ← I’ll quote you here as many times as needed also. Logic and evidence will win in the end, and so far you have neither of those on your side.
The best thing you could possibly do is to try to engage with the core argument, using evidence and logic. It’s your only hope to win (which you won’t, but you can learn something new in the process and that is its own form of victory).
Here’s a little taste of what is coming if you choose to continue the losing path of derailment. I’ll quote the below excerpt to you as many times as needed (as. many. times. as. needed.) to either force you to engage with it or admit that you can’t:
Just letting you know what to expect if you keep up this losing rhetorical strategy. Choose wisely.
Yay another hillariously bad take from Mindtrick.