Because livestock are considered property, you’re describing the outcome of torts, that is: a crime against a person, which is a matter of civil law. Murder is considered to be a crime against society, or a matter of criminal law - and in such cases, society does impose remedies that go well beyond monetary compensation to ensure justice.
Stop trying to apply real world logic to a video game. All your doing is reeeeeeeeing for attention. Like always. Your night elf story matters more than any other part of the game. And no there was no racial motivation. All you do is take real world logic and try to present that as evidence to your claims. But that’s not how it works, notice how other person posted exact quote of Sylvanas from the book that you had already tried to misquote, and you can’t even respond about your blatant attempt to mislead readers. You just start spouting off other non related real life crap. That a sign your wrong when you literally can’t argue with anything in game and factual.
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When we are asking questions about how the audience is to take things - then yes, real world logic does apply. That is the understanding from which the audience approaches the matter, your odd sputtering here aside.
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Unless you don’t support the death penalty. Which is considered to be an archaic and barbaric punishment by some, even when it would seem like a fitting penalty for the crime.
One mans justice is another mans atrocity. There is no universally accepted concept of justice, which is the flaw in OP’s arguement.
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Notice how you again refuse to acknowledge your blatant attempts to misquote and mislead! I think most people would agree that if you literally had your soul stolen from you they might not hold you as accountable for your actions. Does not mean we are condoning a made up genocide that wasn’t even a genocide.
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If we again analogize to criminal justice, I’d disagree. The core aim of that is to prevent the crime from occurring again. Whether you express that through a death penalty or life imprisonment, the same aim is achieved against a member of society that is so dangerous that they can’t be permitted to act in society any longer.
Which, I think Sylvanas became a long time ago.
I’m not going to reply to every absurd thing you’ve said, especially when you’ve given next to zero backing, don’t appear to be acknowledging the full context of the conversation, and/or are otherwise incoherent.
In this case, my commentary was principally directed at one person and their opinions, which makes your decision to comment here pretty strange. When you say this:
There wasn’t a WE to speak of, unless you are agreeing in lockstep with the monstrous things that Renautus, and only Renautus, said in this thread.
Did you, or did you not change a quote from the book saying alliance to kaldori just to try and better support your claim of genocide? If genocide never occured how could he be condoning it? And I think it’s safe to assume having ones soul returned would most likely eliminate the evil acts from occuring anymore if it is believed to be the cause of the actions happening in the first place.
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Not talking about the concept of civil justice, no, since then that gets into the idea of jurisdictions and sovereignty and that’s just a whole mess on its own. Who has the right to punish who and what is and is not cruel and unusual punishment and blah blah blah. (At that point there has to be a trial, you can’t just run out and kill someone because you think they deserve the death penalty.)
Even within a given society there are disagreements on what is and is not justice - which is why some places have death penalties and some don’t.
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Again this is a fictional world with fictional events and fictional magic. None of which current law or policy is accounting for so still your doing nothing but reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I did not. I pointed out that Sylvanas brought up a host of allegedly racial grievances that, notably, she presented as immutable, racial problems rather than temporary political ones. This is what makes the motivation for the war racial in nature, and the desire to destroy said racial groups as nations and peoples is what causes the action to meet the definition of genocide.
That the Kaldorei were the first target of this plan does not mean that it was a crime that was intended to happen just against them, and you’ll find nothing in my commentary arguing for that sort of exclusivity.
My point regarding justice though isn’t one of magnitude, it’s that there is a component of deterrence. The crime must be prevented from happening again, and that is why society considers such acts to be crimes against itself rather than just against the victim, and why society steps in.
Maybe in the society that you live in, but what I am saying is that does not necessarily apply to all societies, all codes of justice.
You may think death or life imprisonment are the minimum deterrents but some other system (such as the Venthyr) might find torture and rehabilitation to be more effective.
Hence there is no single accepted concept of justice.
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I disagree. You’re getting hung up on the means of dispensing justice. I’m concerned about the motive. The Death Penalty and Life Imprisonment are interchangeable as far as I am concerned because what they have in common is that they represent that society has determined that the defendant’s actions are too egregious to let the defendant back into society, or to send the message that one can commit those actions and be allowed to exist in society any further. The motive is to deter future action, not simply to punish past actions - and I can think of no society where this motive isn’t shared.
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every1: “omg i gto reveng i am emtpy inside, reveeng is bad”
nelf: “OMG Y IS DIS COMON STORY BEET HAPNE 2 ME”
If you get into the motive you have to accept that Sylvanas’s judgement may have been impaired and she was the subject of manipulation by a third party who forced her to take the actions you want to deter. With her soul restored and the removal of her connection to Zovaal, as well as her abdication from rulership of the Horde and Forsaken, she may no longer be the threat to society she was before.
I just gave you an in game example in the Venthyr and and the Court of Harvesters.
They don’t believe in indefinite imprisonment or a ‘death penalty’ as deterrence. They believe in rehabilitation, albeit by extreme measures, and only consign the most dangerous to oblivion after a long and exhaustive attempt to redeem them.
In their society even crimes as sever as genocide on a planetary level is not deemed so severe that you are to be excluded from society indefinitely. For the Venthyr there is always the hope of redemption, and even the most twisted souls are given an opportunity to have that hope realized.
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Which is certainly convenient for preserving the character, but rather dissatisfying and a shade monstrous when we consider that this is still the character who was responsible for a genocide. Suffice to say, I don’t appreciate these little Blizzard problems that they’ve been throwing up in front of me, and they’ve done this for years, to tell me why I shouldn’t want what they established as my motive.
Like the Sha.
This is again a question of means, not motive. The motive remains to prevent the undesirable action. Their means includes rehabilitation, and they believe that such is possible. However, as you noted (and I compare the bold with the italicized text for a reason) - they do believe in a sort of death penalty as well, they just try a different method first.
Edit: Mor is online
As long as one is willing to atone, that’s the only justice that the Shadowlands presents and that’s the only justice that can apply to Sylvanas.
That was even something presented in Garrosh’s trial. Alextrazsa says “few beings are truly evil. All beings are free to choose Light or Darkness, but if they choose Darkness to the point where all life is threatened, then they are lost.” That seems to set up the expectation that all villians can be redeemed in this universe if they choose to be. Even Garrosh got a noble sacrifice in the end and he did not believe in redemption, But there may be expectations like Zorval or Sargeras who had the capacity and the motive to wipe out all life.
What would you count as “atonement”?
Please bear in mind that we had 5,000 posts in previous threads detailing why this cannot involve doing anything for the wronged party. I am certain that those people will come flooding in if you propose the wrong answer.
OK.
The Horde will not be destroyed. A couple of decades of torture, depending on the length of life. Of course, the staff of the Guardians will have to be expanded, but it will be worth it.
Psychological trauma and the inability to determine when a tortured person is becoming “safe” but “not repairable” somewhat interferes with this concept.
Of course, there will be questions like “Who appointed you Ventiry?”, “Maybe that’s enough?”, “Are you monsters?”, But no. All in the name of “justice”, “justice”. No hidden sadism. Truth.
teldrassil was a genocide…multiple sources…devs, ingame, and books talk about it und used the term genocide.
I’m not Google Kyalin.
The definition of atonement is the reparation or expiation for sin. We are in WoW’s literal Hell, but Sylvanas’s soul has been punished since she died with eternal torment so I think it’s not a matter of law but has she suffered enough for her sins? I’m not a theologian Kyalin. This is a BIG question that I’m leaning on Blizzard to answer for me in the upcoming expansions… has Sylvanas suffered enough that she’s willing to atone? What will her atonement look like? a visit to Revendreth?
But you are not interested in atonement, you just want blood.
Don’t beat around the bush that you want justice, you just want your pound of flesh.