TWW Hpal issues

Classes Paladin
1

After new upcoming class turning, Hpal had been Nerfed for 6 consecutive weeks. Surely the Herald of Sun were Overpowered at first,but Lightsmith are nearly useless in healing, and still not changed yet. But we still got nerf on WoG, holyshock this week. The powerful restoration shaman get another buff.
That is so frustrating for Hpal players, especially for the M+ players.
I am DF S4 world#1 Hpal player in M+, io score 3801. Lots of issues not fixed yet,which is even worse in TWW.
Take an example how weak our healing output is: for Khajin
Restoration druid: 800k+healing, able to heal 21 tyrannical
Hpal: MAXIMUM 600K healing, MAXIMUM 19 tyrannical
You can see how unbalanced we got in M+.

Let’s list all Hpal issues:

Mechanics:
1.Glimmer of Light -Deleted
2.Beacon - Not important anymore after nerf
3.Casting- Absolutely a bad idea to cast lifelong spells in melee range
4.Melee-
8 yd Crusader Strike/ interrupt Deleted
AC- Random healing, frequently most healing were consumed by tank, so other people cant receive enough healing during incoming AOE damage. Same issue as MW monk.
Of dawn and dusk- Super low healing of WoG without 30% buff. However, we cannot guarantee that we have 30% buff in every single WoG since our SoTR also consumes the buff.
Almost all of funny mechanics are either deleted or nerfed. When we play Hpal, we fell like playing a melee holy priest. In TWW, our characteristics of PALADIN are gone.

Raid:
Hpal do not have raid healing abilities like revival, Link Soul Totem, Tranquility, etc. In Beta, Link Soul Totem does 15% reduced damage taken, 800K+ immediately healing and redistribute HP every second. Compare to aura mastery, which only have 9% damage reduction, it is absolutely unfair.

This situation even become worse in M+. Long cooldown healing abilities like revival, all got 400% buff when not in raid group. But Hpal didn’t benefit from any of those buffs. The only cooldown allowed us to heal all 20 players, tyrs’ deliverance, even been nerfed in TWW.

Healing:
1.160K mana cost for Holy light. Make no sense.
2.Hero talent-
Herald of Sun: Overpowered in raid, should add target limit. In M+, currently beam are even less important than the haste.
Lightsmith: Except holy bulwark, Talent tree have less than 5% healing output, almost weaker than weapon enchantment. Blessing of the forge as the ultimate talent, does low damage and less than 2% healing output.
3.Tyrs’ deliverance- 30% spell power (nearly no healing) and 10%buff, this talent is designed to waste the talent points for Relentless Inquisitor. Redesign or delete it please.
4.Truth Prevails- Seriously? You think 200K healing have “overheal” when we got 5.5M+ HP?
5.Veneration same as Truth Prevails, absolutely weak.
6. Light of dawn- nobody want to use it even in raid. Absolutely low spell power, don’t know why increasing 25 yd still in talent tree when people already throw the LoD out of the bar.
7.Beacon of light
Beacon of faith- You cannot even fell the beacon exists.
Beacon of Virtue- Waste mastery for ranged targets.
8.AC-No buffs on judgement, make it worse than Crusader Strike.
9.Greater Judgement- almost all of the Greater Judgement were consumed by tank. Should add a limit that other people could benefit from greater judgement.
10.In TWW, devs trying to buff single target healing, so they buffed living flame, vivify, etc. in order to help healer better in single target heal. Hpal get buff in Flash of Light, which is quiet confusing, since Hpal highly relying on HS and WoG to heal single target. By calculating, Hpal need about 20 FoL to heal a tank without any buff. In both raid and M+, no one actually use FoL to heal people, because it is so low efficient. And the difference between FoL and Holy Light are just “No mana cost mini Holy Light”and “Super high mana cost big Holy Light”, boring playstyle.

Defensives- Horrible
People always stereotype, think Hpal have good defensives. Actually we only have divine protection as short CD cooldown, which firstly, 42s cooldown not short enough; secondly, 20% reduces damage taken are not enough.
For instance:
In 17 tyrannical Nokhud Offensive, Hpal cannot survive from Gale Arrow even the divine protection active. In 20 tyrannical, ONLY divine shield could survive from Gale Arrow, because we cannot even survive with aura mastery. Thats how weak our defensive is.
Sacrifice- In beta, I tried to use Sacrifice to protect tank. Guess what happened: the damage from 30% sacrifice immediately emptied my HP. And I realised something funny- Nerf Sacrifice from 30% to 20% is actually a big buff to it. Now after change CD in TWW, we both lose a useable sacrifice in AOE damage and got 1min longer cooldown.
Aura mastery- Exclude 3% devotion aura, aura mastery actually only worth 9% damage reduction. Yes, 9%. Surely it is powerful in raid, but in M+? We should get a double effect Aura mastery in M+.
Divine Shield- It should not have GCD.
Fading light- 3% of healing and damage are completely unstackable for Hpal as a healer, need to change.

Damage:
Conflict between healing and damage-
At M+, we need to use our defensive cooldown to do higher damage. E.g. Avenging Wrath, divine troll, SoTR… However, even though we have to take so many risk and well manage our cooldown, we still have low damage compared to other healers. Especially for SoTR, we use our resources to deal damage, we should get more rewards than other free casting spell, like Star fire, smite or living flame.
Holy shock- only spell that cost super high mana when attacking enemy. Need a change as evoker’s living flame, return mana cost when attacking.

Finally, thanks for being patient to hear my complain and apologise for my secondary-language level english. We all want hpal to be better. I respect all work dev team done, but for real, hpal are getting worse and boring, hope you can listen feedback above from me and hundreds of players in CN forums.

14 Likes
2

I would like to add that some of the issues with holy spec, is range. I was just doing a heroic raid a bit ago and it felt like the distance was to close for lod to even work properly. also, the cost of fol is 4500mana and heals for nearly 54k, indicating that it would make more sense for a player to use that, over hl, which costs roughly 16k and heals for 82k. so I think there are some balancing issues in terms of spells/abilities in hpallys.

1 Like
3

Holy was more or less invalidating every other healer on the beta, except Pres Evoker. During recent raid testing they were doing ~30% more hps than other healers in some cases. In anything i would have expected bigger nerfs, but it seems like they choose to buff the weaker healers instead.

4

For mechanics

  1. Glimmer leaving is good, hs hits harder
  2. Beacon is still good, even stronger because of how much stronger our spells can hit for
  3. Yea casting is always weird but it’s either for mana management or the fastest holy light ever so it’s okay in my mind, even in melee range
  4. The range loss does suck
    Ac random healing is only good when overpowered but that’s its own bag of worms. I LOVE when it’s viable though
    You can easily guarantee the dawn buff on wog by understanding when you can do DMG with enough time to get the buff back for necessary healing

Holy light is finally back to a “oh crap I need a big heal” and that’s why it’s mana cost is higher. It the original value and functionality/purpose of it existing in the first place

Tyrs does and always has sucked

Veneration is disappointing

Light of Dawn is a let down for sure specially with the TWO talent points

For beacons it’s wild how bad faith feels (even regardless of tuning it’s just lame)
Virtue is the best/most fun spell to press, it just costs wayyyy too much mana

Again, AC is its own bag of worms.

Judgment used up by the tank is odd but fine, less healing needing to be focused on a tank so I think it’s fine as a “whoever needs it most, gets it” sorta thing

Our defensive have been getting nerfed a lot which is a bummer because I’m a big fan of the viability and niche of the entire tool kit.
Blessing of sac got a buff (but also a CD nerf) so that’s a little better but I agree

Dealing damage is still a huge letdown. Paladins should do the second highest DMG (to disc priest) because were literally a melee range warrior healer, that might be an emotional reason but still, I’m sure everyone can agree a bit better of a DMG rotation is. Necessary specially considering how it affects our mana management when contributing so little

1 Like
5

Thanks for bringing these points qiaoling. congratulations on World #1.

I agree with every single point. I have been testing beta since they gave us access. and all these nerfs are coming from Raid performance, not M+ dawnlights were overpowered because we had more people to heal. in a 5 man setting the AoE healing was fine. but now it’s nerfed 6 times.

Our Defensives are not that good. our divine shield needs to get off GCD, the same as the SoR. Either reduce divine purpose defensive or give us shield of vengeance. Honestly. I don’t know how many more times. I will have to post the same thing.

Evi, it was putting those numbers cause of dawnlights, which is fine to be nerfed but it should be nerfed only in the raid. as Qiaoling stated, it should be limited in raid settings and not nerfed to the ground in both types of content.

1 Like
6

Disagree. Glimmer being gone changes where our throughput comes from but our overall power budget is still going to be the same. It being gone just leaves us with a worse talent tree and less skill expression.

I agree with pretty much everything OP said.

7

Managing glimmer definitely was a fun skill expression, you are right

8

Ya’ll… what skill expression did glimmer have? It hasn’t been something that was actively tracked since it was target-capped back in BFA.

Glimmer was largely set and forget. It was just a bunch of passive healing that had very little impact and held a large portion of the specs power.

Yes and that’s a good thing. The power being redistributed to active abilities allows more direct control, on top of the fact that they feel impactful.

Glimmer being there at the price of every other button healing for wet noodles isn’t a good trade off.

Blessed focus was also trash and actively worked against the whole gimmick of glimmer since the rework (pairing it with Daybreak for mana regen).

Our issue has never been gradually healing someone tick by tick. It’s the fact every other button we had didn’t move health bars in a meaningful way. This is fixed in TWW.

On top of the fact that I don’t think holy needs an additional layer of skill expression. We were the only healers to have multiple (3+) resources: mana, glimmer, infusions, and holy power. One of them needed to go and I’m glad it was glimmer.

I think it was a great spell and it will be fondly remembered. But that way it was implemented was not good.

9

I disagree.

But look, I’m not advocating for Glimmer to come back, I do not think Blizzard will add it back. I keep pointing to Glimmer because I liked it and I don’t understand why it got pruned before everything else. I don’t care about Daybreak being gone, Rising Sunlight is a good replacement. I just don’t want to be stuck with the same talent build and all of the same dead talents in the spec tree as DF.

1 Like
10

The issue with nerfing holy shock is expanded because it reduces the value of DT and Sunrise at the same time. So it’s not just a hit to our single target but the AOE healing throughput as well.

Tyr’s needs to be reworked into a 20 second raid CD and delete Boundless Salvation and the extending mechanic. In fact just merge Tyr’s with Aura Mastery and it’d be similar to something like spirit link totem at least.

As it stands, Hpal has a bunch of dead talents and will have next to no build variety across content.

1 Like
11

I feel like the lack of build variety has been attributed to the endless tug of war of Melee versus ranged healing

12

And that’s because Blizzard absolutely refuses to do the same thing they did with Monk and make it straight forward. Instead they keep trying to push players to do both at the same time, but cripple you for doing so.

There has to be a million little caveats attached to trying to heal in melee vs range for Paladin, with a million talent points spread around haphazardly around the spec tree.

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13

Not to mention the melee ones are absolutely garbage

2 Likes
14

I haven’t played hpal much yet on beta or live to really get a feel for the play style again. What little I have played since pre-patch dropped I noticed I kept having to stop myself from trying to spread glimmers haha. Are you mostly ignoring infusion procs now and focusing on pumping HS and WoG?

I actually retired my pally for the end of S3 and for S4 of DF cause of how bloated it felt and how bad it felt to push your buttons and I’ve mained it every season since nighthold in legion. I want to come back to it for WWI but my biggest concern is that it feels good cause it’s overtuned like s2 and not because it actually feels better to play.

Not a pro by any means but I’ve done up to 23s (or I guess what would be considered 13s now) and such. It just frustrated me to the point I couldn’t play it anymore having to put in so much work for mediocre results. I don’t care if it’s the #1 healer. I just want to enjoy playing it and I’m wondering if people are enjoying it now cause of how it feels to play or cause it’s numbers are nice at the moment.

15

I have also thought this. I don’t understand why they don’t just allow both to be options. Redo the tree and split it down the middle. One side is melee oriented and the other side caster oriented. I’m certain melee would be played far more than caster but it gives the people who want to play caster the option and we’d be done with this lame hybrid mix that just feels bad for everyone.

2 Likes
16

Id prefer the options to be AOE vs single target but your still right

17

Because as long as infusion of light exists in its current state it will determine the meta for the spec.

If infusions are strong the meta will push towards casting. If infusions are bad, melee is the superior choice.

It doesn’t feel good when melee is good because casting sucks and vice versa. Blizzard has not been able to balance it in years and the only time both were viable is when both playstyles were outperforming every other healer after the rework in Season 2.

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18

How should it change?

A talent to set a melee version vs a caster version of the buff it provides? I like that idea but running will still decide a meta. Do you have an idea?

I still think the spec choice should be AOE vs single target. If they try to balance whatsoever, then I’d imagine the content would decide the choice, but with caster vs melee, whichever had higher hps is picked.

19

Simple solution would be to have Infusion of Light include Crusader Strike and SotR to heal and shield people respectively.

2 Likes
20

Honestly I don’t think Infusion matters all that much between Caster/Melee builds. At least not to me.

Maybe make Infusion FoL instant cast again maybe so it would be lovely middle ground between the “Ranged” Holy Light and the “Melee” Judgement, but overall Infusion, at least in my opinion is relatively minor.

Again the real problem is the haphazard nature of the spec tree where they keep trying to design talents to work for both styles which always makes them fall into three camps.

  • They work too well in melee and suck at range
  • They work too well at range and suck at melee
  • They are just bad
1 Like