Wrong.
+4s give runed crest…
Use those crest to upgrade gear to 619…
Trying to skip steps is the problem you’re having.
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It’s close enough that most players should be content.
See, I never cared about or wanted BiS in the first place. I wanted some noticeable step up from World Quest/Heroics. Didn’t have to be M+10 gear, didn’t have to be Mythic or even Heroic Raid gear.
I wanted some purples better than I’d get out of Heroics or World Quests. And Delves give exactly that.
I imagine plenty of people sit in the same boat as me. They wanted meaningful gear progression that didn’t involve raider io.
And events are annoying, and subject to chance. Are there enough people on to kill Fyrakk’s lackey? No? Then you’re not getting the drop from him until enough players show up. That’s why I hate world events like that.
Delves? You can do them on YOUR time and YOUR schedule. And it’s progression. You start out with +3s, move up to +4, +5, to maybe get all the way up to +8. It’s content to do instead of praying that the Suffusion Chest doesn’t give you the 3rd pair of boots in a row.
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Doesn’t getting fully geared by delves depend a lot on luck though? Like if you got lucky to get every slot filled out across the two weeks… man, lucky you. Plenty of people have been burning their bountiful keys and getting slot repeats and such. Those people very much still need the gear from other sources. Just like people who raid and are unlucky. Just like people who m+ and get unlucky (with the exception that M+ is infinitely spammable for gear).
I guess I haven’t played enough yet to feel what you’re feeling.
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Blizzard is getting help from Zenimax now, mainly the ESO devs. I can already see some of their influence on WoW.
The developers that took charge of the game in Legion just don’t understand good MMO design. A lot of them were brought over from Diablo 3, and you can feel that ARPG design all over the game now. They ripped so many systems from D3 without really giving a thought to how they would play out in an MMO. M+ was one of them, works great in D3, but it is just toxic to WoW.
I hope that the ESO devs can help out Blizzard even more. ESO is a fantastic MMO, the was only really held back by its crappy combat system. The rest of the game is just amazing for casual MMO players.
Man I was pugging +12s and +13’s on my ret in DF while blasting music and eating, barely paying attention and I had no problems so I guess I don’t understand that. Maybe it’s to do with me having been a ret? All I know is almost every group I pugged with we timed the key, so maybe it’s because I never invited anyone under my own ilvl? Who knows
I skimmed through the stuff you said and, you still seem to be stuck on this (you have just rephrased it by saying “M+ wasn’t available at the time” several times over):
To gear your character you didn’t do it via M+ nor the raid, that’s true. But that means that you haven’t progressed at all through any kind of teamwork oriented PvE content that would lend credence to you being a competent and reliable player. You have done 7/8 Normal bosses and you want to push into M7s … having done no prior M+ this season nor done any heroic raiding either?
Let’s rephrase this so you get it then:
Why on earth would ANYONE assume that you know anything about the game and how to play it when all you have is ilvl and gear from a type of PvE activity that isn’t indicative to how teamplay works? No one can tell whether you did delves as a solo player or in a group, so why would one assume you know how to play in a group at all when the most you have to show for it is an incomplete full-Normal raid run?
Don’t see this as me being disparaging towards you but… you do at least see why no sane person is going to invite you into a group, right? Either do M+ with friends that knows you can perform, start your own group which will still need the key to be run on lower levels first, or at least I dunno… finish full-clearing Normal?
Probably won’t get you any more invites but… that’s something at least if you really don’t want to do any low keys but I honestly can’t see how you would avoid doing that.
This has always been the case.
Content rewards based on difficulty of content.
If im open world player, open world rewards me with gear that should make me content for the content im doing
Same with m+
And raids
If i never plan on doing anything beyond event bosses, i didnt need anything beyond event gear.
Delves dont change this. Want better gear, do more/harder content. It still applies
Yeah, but delves don’t involve trying to please other players and convince them to let you join in on the fun.
You just go to the delve, and… do it.
And get rewards.
The way it ought to be. Show up, do the content, get the rewards.
Not, use a bunch of third party addons, pray you can find someone willing to take you, probably wait around for hours because nobody wants to join your group and you can’t find anybody who will take you, or maybe you’re a class/spec that nobody wants, blah blah blah.
Ilvl/rewards dont match difficulty.
If you needed m12 rewards to beat m12, you’d never beat it because rewards stop at m10
Thats how it is.
How did you get to tier 8 in delves? You had to show up and do each lower tier first right?
Same applies to m+. Show up and do the lower tiers to show me you belong in my +7. You cant bear a tier 6 delve, you dont get to magically walk into tier 7.
You cant praise one system and then bash the other when theyre the same. One is automated and the other is more lenient
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you know you dont have to do them
There’s one big difference between Delves and M+.
Wanna know what that is?
Lemme give you a second to think about it.
You ready?
Raider io.
I bash M+ not because of the system itself, but rather because of the toxicity and elitism surrounding it. It turns players against each other, it turns the whole thing into a competition (co-op should never be a competition of players against players), there’s gatekeeping, it’s hard to get into as a newbie, nobody wants you because you have no experience, but you can’t get experience without doing the content, which nobody wants to take you to…
“Make your own groups!” … you list a group and… nobody wants to join because you have no experience.
You have none of that BS going on with Delves.
Also, Delves have no time limits. You get lives instead of a time limit. You can take your time, plan, use CCs, whatever you need to do to clear the fights.
And since you’re in there by yourself, you don’t have to deal with a lunatic tank pulling the entire dungeon in one go, regardless if your group can actually handle those pulls or not like I see happening in Heroics where a tank just keeps going even if we have 2 dead DPS.
Thats why, like delves, you start at the bottom and work your way up, like delves.
Sure, part of solo play appeal. This has nothing to do with gatekeeping though.
Also nothing to do with gatekeeping.
Point is: gatekeeping is just as much a part of delves as it is in m+. One is automated. One is player controlled
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I’ve heard stories of people trying to start out on m0, +1 what not and can’t find groups. They wait around for hours and can’t even get into zeroes.
Sure it has everything to do with gatekeeping: it offers you a way around the player-based gatekeeping.
Before, when m+ was pretty much the ONLY way to gear outside of world events past Heroics, you either did M+ or you stopped your journey at Heroics.
Now, you can continue your journey, get decent gear that is Almost as good but not quite, and nobody can deny you access.
See above.
When the game gatekeeps, it gives you very clear conditions for passing it. “You must have this I-level to do this content” “You must be level 80” and it’s consistent.
With players it’s “eh, you need X rating” or “you need these achieves” or “you’re THAT class? Pfft, we don’t want one of THOSE in our dungeon!”
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I mean yeah but that’s only for anything past +10. Anything lower than +10 requires much less skill if you have a higher ilvl lol. At 530 I was able to almost solo carry +7’s and +8’s with close to 500k DPS and completely ignore most mechanics.
Whats funny, is i think this is actually gonna back fire on blizzard.
I think they massively overestimate the amount of players that actually want to grind past full heroic gears.
I know for myself, once i get full heroic geared, and its all upgraded, thats it, im done for the season, i dont log in anymore.
Mostly because i dont wanna deal with mythic raiding, and i refuse to play the wow vault lotto for mythic gear.
I think a lot of people share a similar mind set where they have a stopping point and for a lot its not myth geared.
Most casual people who love things like Delves also have alts.
Some people have 60+ alts. I can’t imagine having that many, but eh. There are things to do after getting full delve gear.
Historically speaking, players have always been told by those who consider themselves their betters that starting with entry level content is pointless. That they should start with higher difficulty content. People who pooh pooh the idea that there is a learning curve will tell them to skip follower dungeons. Often times we hear that neither normal nor heroic dungeons should exist.
So what did we get? There’s a road block between normal dungeons (if even used for leveling) and heroic dungeons that is intended to send players to other content to gear up for mythic+. Who could have imagined that a player who has never stepped foot in some dungeon might not be expert at it? Grim Batol says hi.
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So i skimmed the conversation and i have some bad news for you about this. There is no way to skip player gatekeeping metrics.
I have been playing this game for 20 years now, and i can tell you, that players will ALWAYS find a metric to judge you by, so you cant really skip it, its just a matter of what metric people value more.
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They can judge me all they want. I frankly don’t give a rat’s behind what they think of me.
They cannot, however, deny me access to post-heroic gear like they used to when m+ was the only way to get gear past heroics.