TWW = An Embarrassing state for Druids

Classes Druid
42

Raid Healing
We went into normal raid–NORMAL–and the first words out of my mouth were, “What on earth did they DO to Tranquility?” It. Did. NOTHING.

The Holy Priest cast Halo, and I saw the entire raid bump up. I cast a 3-Swiftmend Tree of Life Tranq and NOTHING HAPPENED. It was the slimiest, ugliest moment in all my time as an RDruid.

I get that we have spent quite a bit of time as the FOTM healer in previous expansions, and I’m not asking for that, but when I stack up my raid cooldown and use it perfectly, it should matter. I should at least SEE it on the bars.

Our cooldowns and HoTs don’t matter at all right now, and frankly, I feel guilty taking a raid spot in my guild’s heroic raid next week. I may as well not even be there for all the good it does.

The Class Tree
This is the laziest, most ridiculous and phoned-in piece of work I’ve seen from Blizzard in a long time. I can’t comment on the state of anyone else’s trees, but forcing a Resto main/Balance affinity druid to take 6–SIX–talent points that do literally nothing for me just to get Oakskin is disgusting. I have to choose between raid utility and survivability…or being able to do any kind of damage.

It’s forced catweaving and an absolute denial of a balance affinity from Resto. I see it, and I’m salty about it.

Rejuv and Wild Growth are talents, now? Rake is a talent? What the actual, Blizz? These are baseline abilities, and they don’t belong on the talent tree at all.

The Hero Talents
Wildstalker is more forced catweaving, and it’s so boring you don’t even notice its presence. It’s fine for dungeon heals at M0, but I’m concerned what it will feel like in keys. It really tickles the mastery and encourages good stacking, so that’s what I use it for. I haven’t had trouble in any of my dungeons keeping people up, even when they make mistakes, but there is nothing interesting, new, or fun to play with there. It feels no different than healing did pre-TWW, and if I hadn’t had to click the buttons myself, I’d never know I had any hero talents at all. Let’s not even mention how utterly unviable Wildstalker is in raiding content. It’s a non-option.

Much like the class tree forces catweaving for resto mains, the Grove hero talents force tree-tossing and Reforestation as a playstyle if you go that route. That’s just a me-problem, I know. Lots of druids love the Grove Guardians, but I despise them. They made little AI trees to pass out HoTs so the druid doesn’t have to, and it’s like…then why am I here? I don’t like them, but I’m forced to play with them if I want to be above the bloody tanks on the meter…and that’s where I’ll be with the current state of Rdruid. Right above the tanks.

It feels bad. It feels really bad. I’m pretty mad at it.

This. And look at the talents you have to utterly WASTE just to get to Oakskin and Honed Instincts. It’s insane.

3 Likes
43

“That points a strawman!”
creates strawman
Pointing out you’re missing the point? Not a strawman. Acting like anyone said any individual was holding their raid back? Yeah, that’s one.

44

So you don’t know what a straman is? Got it. Explains why you keep making them

I didn’t miss the point. I mentioned it multiple times. It’s just irrelevant (which is why i posted logs, showing that it’s irrelevant)

We’re discussing a spec needing buffs to be “competitive”. If you’re feeling that that one spec is needing buffs, you’re feeling like they’re holding the raid back. That’s not a strawman, otherwise we wouldn’t be out here having this conversation.

Let’s look at the data again shall we?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/zj17WkKMQYRFda2B#fight=53&type=damage-done

Why isn’t the Hunter, DK, Monk, DH and Rogue beating Cinnamont? All the data says they should be beating him!!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B81knNHCjvyPfYG3#fight=35&type=damage-done

This log was clearly fabricated and everyone sat back and let the Druid do 50% of the damage to the boss before anyone else joined in, right? Only explanation. Because data shows that Ferals cannot be this level of competitive in a raid.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HAjgWPLJ8b3Bypm1#fight=18&type=damage-done
Same with this one. Someone must be hacking in and changing all the numbers these Ferals are doing. They’re supposed to be doing less than everyone else. There’s no way they can be competing.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hjd6z3kv7J4TMapX#fight=53&type=damage-done

All this “according to sims and theorycrafting” is meaningless and you all hold onto it for dear life like you understand what it’s showing.

1 Like
45

Look a little closer at the data. Cinnamont has 11 ilvls on the frost dk and are within 4m damage of each other. Meanwhile the arcane mage is practically doubling the druids damage with the same ilvl difference with Cinnamont. Second log, druid is top dps. Mage appears to have died 37 seconds into the fight. Only beating the next dps by 11m damage. While the first log the arcane mage beat the feral by 130m damage. Cool you beat people who are dead, under geared, or bad at the spec. Conclusion, feral is fine /s.

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46

Doesn’t explain the other ones - and a “15% buff to make them competitive in ST” should put them well ahead of that 4m buffer range. Yet there he is. Being competitive.

Ah yes, explains why the Feral Druid is beating the other Arcane mage and the Monk and the Warriors and the Shaman and the DK…All because the mage died 37 seconds in. Totally affects the other classes performance as well. Glad we dug into that one.

Want to talk about how on the 3rd log, how the Feral is only beating the other specs in his raid group because the holy priest died half way through the fight?

Lol you’re trying to cherry pick and it’s not working. One person dying explains why he beat 1 person. Not the other 33% of the raid that lived and still didn’t perform as well.

1 Like
47

I came back to try TWW. Didn’t play DF at all but I’ve always been a resto druid. That, that has all changed. I got my shaman and druid to 580 and ran mythics… It was so bad on druid. Raids? Bottom with druid. Didn’t even feel like I made a difference.

48

i read your entire conversation, and i was solidly opposed to you, and so confused about what your argument or goal is. but it was this comment that made it click, haha. i think i smell what you’re cooking, and if I do, i agree.

if the conversation were the reverse, they’d get it. eg, if we took a windwalker who was poorly performing (say for example me lol), no one would suggest WW needs a buff because i’m lagging behind. they’d say i need to do better.
similarly, if you’re looking at sims for average players, it’s a tad odd to say the class needs a buff, when you could be telling them to play the class better. it won’t close the gap entirely between a top performing feral and a top performing arcane mage, no, but it will be enough to be considered “competitive” amongst other top performers.

49

Yes.

Assuming ALL THINGS EQUAL (which is never the case), Feral and Balance both fall behind other classes. But again, no one, and no one raid group, is continuously playing within 3% margin of each other.

I.E. - raid groups aren’t all parsing between 67th and 70th percentile for example.

It doesn’t matter if Arcane Mage is doing 2x the damage of Feral (it does, but bear with me), if that Arcane Mage is dying 30 seconds into every fight or constantly failing mechanics.

If you’re parsing blues and greens and even the lower half of purples, a buff isn’t going to fix the issue. Getting better at the spec and thus performing your spec better compared to your peers is what will make the most difference and close the gaps.

Again, in a perfect world or if computers were running our characters and they were all performing at the 90th percentile, Feral would be at the bottom of the lists. No doubt about it. And that means Feral (and even Balance by that extension) could be using some buffs. For sure.

But not even the top guilds are playing that closely together.

Individual skill shows a lot more insight to classes and rankings than a simulated and aggregated data spreadsheet.

Edit: here’s a log of the top DPS for the first boss fight (happens to be a warrior)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9Lr2wcfPJxMXTtGQ#fight=30&type=damage-done

Between ALL the specs and all the runs that have been logged, we can see the guild performing from 100 percentile to the 40th percentile. With personal performances (quite a few) dipping below the 50th percentile against others with the same ilvls.

In order for aggregated data and rankings lists to mean anything, your entire guild would have to be playing within 2-3 percentile of each other. And as shown, not even top guild are able to pull that off.

Which is why trying to use “sims and theorycrafting” as voices of reasoning is a flawed take.

2 Likes
50

I’m having a moonbeam of a time.

:full_moon_with_face:

(Eclipse has been bad since Wrath of the Lich King – nothing new to see here.)

Wanna see some dummy thick damage? Pop orbital strike sunfire and mushroom with treants and start spamming starfall. I have seen a few pulls over 1.5m AoE damage. This even seems damage positive on 2 target cleave during burst phase (Silken Court? Wink Wink?)

Single target? No clue here. Why does Starsurge hit for less than the casted spells? That seems like a pretty big oops. Can still push some decent enough numbers, even if triggering eclipse is (always was) bad.

Also also, I am pretty stoked to try a big moon crit build once 11.0.2 rolls around. Sitting on Full Moons and rotating instant cast rots until the stars align seems like ridiculous burst opps. Will be neat to check out.

51

Play and find out

52

I am playing, and am doing just fine with the spec while being undergeared.

Sounds a lot like L2P issues and blaming your poor skill on some chart you don’t understand :slight_smile:

Read a guide

53

Really?
This was just a commercial for your ego?

1 Like
54

No, this was explaining and showing why people shouldn’t make claims off of “information” they know nothing about.

Don’t get upset when you tell me to go play and I’m doing fine and replicating the data i’m providing.

Again, you should go read a guide.

55

Maybe you should write one, then.

Seriously, preening on the forums isn’t useful. Trying to drill down on what the issues are is useful.

For example (and not directed at Grizzle): I’m having no issue healing dungeons. I would advise the people who are to go Wildstalker with all the Wild Growth boost talents, Ancestor, and Soul build instead of screwing around with Lifebloom and Grove Guardians. That style might be beneficial in raid, but I see an awful lot about Lifebloom on these forums, and I don’t really use it outside of a basic addition to keep up on one player at a time (usually my tank).

If you’re struggling to keep people up in dungeons, just know that I have not been. At all. And I’m not “good.” So maybe it’s the build you’re using. Maybe try my build and see how your mileage varies. Make Swiftmend-empowered Wild Growth and Rejuv the central focus, not Lifebloom and tossing trees, and see how it goes for you.

See? Something like that. Give suggestions about what works for you that people can try out with hope and curiosity instead of growling at them.

I’m not a great druid. I’m just a decent one screwing around in a game I like, trying to play the spec I prefer to all others. I’ve never struggled to do well and perform at the top of my various groups on RDruid. Now, in raids, I do. Something changed, and the data supports the assertion that it’s changed for a lot of druids—that it’s not a simple git gud issue only on my end. Talking about it with other people who also play this class is both cathartic and informative.

4 Likes
56

I think the issue that everyone is having is centered around the ramp-up time and the distinct lack of survivability when things inevitably go south.

Regrowth is a joke.
Shifting into bear means you aren’t doing the damage necessary to allow you to escape.
Moonkin takes more damage than the average mage or priest because our DR is insufficient vs the mobs in TWW.

The damage is ok to decent, when things really hit, they HIT. Multiple Fury of Elune beams looks amazing. But when they don’t hit, it’s troublesome.

The worst of it is that it’s fiddly. Even more so than Demo warlock. Realistically, we need one of two things to happen. Either Moonfire and Sunfire(as much as I hate it and wish that after 10 years we’d get a proper Insect Swarm back) need to be effectively infinite(a refresh mechanic that applies to both on hard casted direct damage spells would work) or we need fewer buttons.

4 Likes
57

I’ve already explained ad nauseum about how to read and interpret the data that these “charts” they’re basing all their arguments off of. They just fail to accept that they’re wrong and that it’s the spec and not their green parsing performance that’s the issue.

This isn’t a “i’m struggling” thread. This is “Druids aren’t competitive” thread (which is just an I’m bad thread technically).

I’ve given them the proof and the information they need. Them refusing to accept it or use it is not my issue.

Never said anything against any of these points. But we also have tools. Roots, knockbacks, RANGE, speed boosts, multiple heals and off shots. Ranged aren’t meant to be face tanking things.

I disagree with this. With refreshing in pandemic windows, you get 24 second duration on dots. Meaning simply a cast, and then a refresh puts you at 46 seconds. Longer than any trash pack is going to live.

But that’s my just opinion on that matter. And not every mob NEEDS the full set of dots on them at all times.

1 Like
58

24 seconds.

That is, at maximum if you do nothing else, 12 Starfire casts. Not counting Starsurge and Starfall, 2 Wraths to put you into Eclipse, or procs to fire off presuming they last long enough for your current 2 second cast to finish. Eclipsed Starfire should have the same base cast time as a Wrath. And while we’re at it Eclipse Wrath should have a bonus crit chance. I’m just spitballing here too, make Starsurge cost 100 astral power and triple it’s current damage.

59

Yeah sorry, i did the opposites of math lol but it still holds. 30 seconds is about what a pack lives for nowadays.

Plenty of time, you’ll be needing to generate AP in between anyway, so it’s not like you’re just sitting there firing off starsurges for those 24 seconds.

60

These non Druids are Druid Trolls.

61

At this point, anyone still replying to this troll is just doing so to keep this thread at the top. Well played.

11 Likes