I am thinking once m+ rolls out and we get better gear our damage will shine? Right now mobs die too qluick for DoTs to do anything. Like my ret pally can delete mobs and mobs like nothing since Wings is tie of Wake of Aahes on a 30cd CD same with exucation sentence so it pairs nicely doing pority damamge and AoE at the same time. with Hearld of the Hand there are lot’s of ST or TV I can put out and the AoE and ST is just really good.
For sure, but that won’t really solve the feel of primal wrath spam due to lower energy. We really need to get 5 CP after hitting PW faster to have time to squeeze in a bite for RF a few more times per minute. Crit specifically will help with that.
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Resto is dog doo doo and dont even get me started on High Delves as Resto Druid. Its like blizzard doesnt care if you want to play Resto outside of mythics and raids…
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I don’t know about anyone else but even as Resto doing M0s was tough, the amount of AoE burst is insane.
10000000% correct on this part. For Raid Resto druid is horrible right now. Probably the worst healer in War within. Whos idea is it to compared hots to instant crazy aoe heals like Dream breath/Word of Glory/Halo…Resto druid mastery scaling is so bad they can’t even do anything in raid heal. For season 1 of War within looking like this for Resto druid. The mastery % is too low for raid healing. Since Resto druids healing comes from their mastery = hots. They probably wont do anything about it but hope for some rework at least…
In your example it requires the Druid to be significantly better than the other players to achieve ending up higher on the meters.
Currently a 100% parse feral is less dps than a 75% arcane mage. In sims the dps difference is about 250k before tier sets are added. It gets slightly better afterwards but not by much.
It is much harder to play perfect than it is to be average which is why people compare sims. They are the optimal ability to play the specs, if the players are equally skilled the dps decrease should be the same. Meaning if both feral and an arcane mage are 75% players the feral is still a ton behind the arcane mage just due to arcanes baseline being so much higher than feral.
Sure, you can top meters in raids and dungeons. Many long time feral players will do this in pugs. But the reality is if you’re doing that it’s because the people around you are either getting owned by mechanics while you’re getting blessed with fewer/none or the people around you suck.
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Which happens quite often and has been prove many times on these very forums. Sims show nearly perfect play, which hardly anyone plays at.
Like i took a normal raid and rankings. And Feral is fairly low as expected.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/38#difficulty=3
And then theres:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/FpgJvK9Y7fraV1jn#fight=1&type=damage-done
(Just random Feral i grabbed, think it was ranked 200 on normals) beating out over half the DPS specs that are supposed to be doing considerably more.
And its a decent raid group (not all parsing greens and not all parsing oranges).
If we were to go off that tier list, that feral wouldn’t have been a part of that raid group.
Like we can check back in in 4-5-6 weeks and see similar examples.
Even the 400th ranked Feral is middle of the pack beating out quite a few specs that are supposed to blow them out of the water.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pDPzbnTgf7cGL6jt#fight=1&type=damage-done
Focusing on specific individuals is a flawed way to assess class performance. You should always consider the overall picture. There’s a reason why data analysis prioritizes aggregate data over individual cases.
Some top performers might be receiving significant assistance from their groups, like buffs or perfectly timed pulls, solely to boost their rankings. This makes individual performance unreliable for judging class strength. You almost always want to examine parses and overall data, even if you narrow down the demographic you’re studying.
It makes no sense to favor specific data over aggregate data when your goal is statistical measurement.
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I understand that. But it is the individual that makes the difference. And these arent exactly top performers. I mean maybe that 200 ranked Feral you can consider it top, but by the time you hit 400 youre falling out of that grace area. So this whole "first week and were gonna do pulls to boost a bottom simmed spec.
And the logs are right there. You can dig in and see things aren’t being pulled around these Ferals.
But the one flaw of using aggregated data is that it pools everyone based on specific data points. Like all classes on the 75th percentile. Theres no dount that feral overall performs worse than other specs at the same percentile. But therein lies the flaw. How many raid groups have the ENTIRE raid performing within a 5% margin? Hardly even #1 guilds can keep up that level of performance.
Which is the problem of aggregated damage. It would take the top feral performer from guild A and compare it against the top performer from MM hunters in guild B. Where as the MM hunter in guild A may only be running at 87th percentile.
Individual performance definitely does matter.
Because a 75th percentile Feral may be better than your top performer in your raid. And aggregated data isnt going to show that.
I mean you see that you took a feral in the top 3% of all normal feral logs and said this “happens quite often”. So you’re saying it’s a regular thing for a random guilds feral to be their best player when very few people play the spec in general? I personally wouldn’t use normal logs to determine balance of anything. In heroic, the upper quartile of feral logs is lower than 10 specs median, meaning that unless you are a feral god you will be lower than your average player of those 10 specs.
Let’s look at that log you posted. If you were to take the ele shaman in his same group for example, the only other person to score as high as he did, that shaman is also a top 3% of his specs performers and did almost 100k more dps than the feral at the same performance level. Meanwhile, if you look at their other ele shaman who got a 75 he was only 60k dps behind the feral while making way more mistakes or dealing with way more mechanics.
People don’t care if you can be decent in comparison if you have to be a way better player than the rest of your team or get lucky with mechanics. The reality is the majority of players are closer to the 75 average(which is why it’s an average) and will not be their raid teams best player. This is why sims are looked at to determine balance. Fights, especially this early on, have too much variance that can skew the results due to fight style, rng of the player getting mechanics, etc. In general, people don’t want to play specs that require you to sweat out of your mind to do just as much dps as the guy busy watching Netflix. The community perspective of the spec also gets hit because they often see average players on feral and based on their numbers assumes the spec must suck.
EDIT:
To your “Because a 75th percentile Feral may be better than your top performer in your raid. And aggregated data isnt going to show that.”
That’s funny because a 75th percentile Feral will actually do less dps than a 50th percentile arcane mage, demo, MM, ele, SV, fury, ret, aff, enhance, and Dev evoker based on the actual data we have so unless guilds are running around with their best player being a 50th percentile player that ain’t happening.
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There’s a flaw in your reasoning. What if this top 400 feral player, whom you claim is middle-of-the-pack in your example, actually performs worse than a top 10,000 mage in terms of damage? You can’t base class strength or weakness on just one raid, as the sample size is too small for meaningful analysis. It seems like you’re cherry-picking data to support your argument.
Overall data compares this top 400 feral player not only to other top 400 players from different classes but also against a much larger sample. This provides a more accurate and precise understanding of class strengths and weaknesses.
Data analysis is a science. You’re not disagreeing with me; you’re arguing against the principles of data analysis itself.
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And I picked someone else further down the list as well and the trend continues. We can even go down to the 50th percentile for ranking and see the exact same thing
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/c39rwmJ4GBxgZvpD#fight=4&type=damage-done
They absolutely do care. That’s exactly how Mythic raid groups are built by you being a better player than your peers. Which is exactly what the data shows. That although ferals are underperforming in comparison to other specs, they’re still doing better than the other players who are playing the “better” specs. Which is why basing things off of sims and rankings charts is a foolish way to go about it.
That’s not how that works lol. There’s a 50th percentile because THAT IS THE AVERAGE.
Again, this happens all the time. And this is based off of individual performance which aggregated data doesn’t show nor represent. Which is why a bad class like Feral is beating the “good classes” in those logs.
Not sure if you understand what “random” means. I literally clicked over a few pages and picked the very bottom choices (since pages go by lists of 100, 200 and 400 are both the very bottom…not really cherry picking). And those are based of, for Ferals, nearly 4000 logged parses. We can go back and look at the log i posted in this comment and see that I grabbed a 48th percentile Feral druid thats ranked 2005???ish out of nearly 4000 and see that the trend still continues.
Yes, Feral may only have 80% of the power of an Arms warrior for example, but if that Feral player is a better player overall, those rankings lists are going to mean nothing and that Feral is going to constantly be out performing that Arms Warrior.
Again, something aggregated data isn’t going to show. Aggregated data shows information based on everyone playing at the same level. That doesn’t happen…in any raid group.
No i am disagreeing with you because you do not understand how the data is presented and therefore have a flawed view on it.
I’m not saying “Ferals aren’t weaker than other classes”. I’ve never said they lag behind. What I said is you can’t use aggregated data to dictate personal performance. Just because the class, when compared to other classes AT THE SAME PERFORMANCE LEVEL, lags behind everyone else doesn’t mean that I am personally going to be lagging behind in my raid group because my raid group doesn’t all perform at the same level.
Show me a raid log that has everyone performing within a 5% margin.
I don’t care if it’s 60-65 / 72-77 / 95-100.
We can take the #1 raid logged Feral currently (fed a lot by an Aug, as will happen), and see that their raid group ranged from the 45th percentile to the 100th.
As a whole, by design and tuning, Feral is weaker than other specs played at the exact same levels. But since raid groups are comprised of different skill levels, you’ll never see a raid comp that follows exact rankings list.
If I’m the top performing class in my raid group as a Feral, why am i going to need a 15% ST buff to be “competitive” when I’m already the best in the raid group?
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What? That doesn’t even make sense. If every single person in a mythic raid group is built by them being a better player then that puts most of the players near the same skill level it just means they are better than the average person outside of their raid. You could take someone like Imfiredup, put him on Fire (the objectively worse performing spec in the game) and send him into a group with bad players and he will be top dps. It doesn’t mean fire isn’t trash, it just means those players are worse.
Sorry, I meant in regards to balance. The game has never been balanced around the 50th percentile and the 75 mark has always been the indicator of how balance is at the moment. At 75 you at least show you know a bit of what you are doing and everyone in that scenario can be expected to have gone through similar situations in a raid. Sometimes it’s not dps skill that drops you that low but rather having to do mechanics that reduce uptime for example. Do you not see that the average is significantly below other classes? Do you really think that every above average Feral is only playing with average players of other specs? What about the average feral player? Are they just supposed to play with worse than average players to have competitive numbers?
Let’s look at Totruids Heroic Ulgrax kill. He got a 100 parse on that fight in a group of 30 players where 18 of the players got above a 95 parse and the raid as a whole got a 99. Even though he has the #1 parse he came in 9th being 175k dps below their top dps arcane mage. Is he an example of being a better player than his raid group while as you say, being fed by an aug, while still doing worse dps than 8 other players despite having the very best feral parse? You can see the dps difference in an almost exact comparison come in to play again if you look at the other feral Doublepatty who got an 88 and the other arcane mage who got a 90. That arcane mage was still over 150k dps higher at a near same parse % as Doublepatty.
That is the most wild take I’ve ever heard. In mythic progression if a spec that is supposed to be better is underperforming it’s because of the player and that player will often get replaced in a more serious guild. Even if you took the rank #1 Feral log on Ulgrax and gave him a 15% dps increase he still wouldn’t out dps the arcane mage as he would now sit at 938,715 dps. That still puts him 50k dps below their raids top spot. At least it would have him claim spot #3 and put him above most of the other people who did not get a 100 parse.
I agree that skill plays an important part of measuring how someone does in a raid.
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No one is talking about you personally, or anyone else individually. The discussion is about the CLASS and specs that are performing WORSE than other CLASSES according to OVERALL data.
No one claimed that a top-performing feral (99% parse) can’t outperform a poorly performing mage (less than 50% parse). That was never the point.
So, your argument is addressing something no one brought up (your personal performance) and refuting a point no one made. Well done…
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I agree on the state of druid. I came back to the game after around 4 years and jumped on my druid, who was my main for years before I quit. I told my wife “I feel so clunky and squishy” not to mention at times it seemed like I was hitting like a wet noodle. I chalked it up to being rusty but no, the feeling never changed. I hope they take an in depth look at the class and tweak it decently. It’s always been my favorite one but right now it has me considering dusting off my old warrior. I hear Fury is having a blast right now.
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This is why we don’t follow rankings lists.
Not all Mythic players are the best of the best. They’re just better than their peers at the time they get recruited. Not all mythic guilds run within 2-3% of each other at 95th percentile. Let’s not be disingenuous.
And i’ve never denied that Feral is low on the tuning totem pole as far as balanced is concerned. I’ve admitted this multiple times.
- he’s not being fed by an aug as you can easily check whereas the top whereas 7 of the other 8 beating him are. Without the aug, he’d have moved into 6th place. And yes this is a fine example. A 99th percentile DH should beat a 100th percentile parse. But with the removal of the augs bonuses, that DH wouldn’t. Same thing with that Shaman.
He’s taking a class that’s worse off and would be doing better with it (but a lot bars on who got mechanics and when).
Which is why we don’t go by tier lists or rankings lists based on sims, like i’ve been saying from the beginning. And this will lead into my next point to the next guy.
This is the entire point. People are making judgements based off of entire groups of perfectly perfected play in an entire raid of equally perfected playing classes. But that’s not how things work.
A well played Feral can beat out a well played Rogue. Regardless of what the sims say and what the rankings lists say. A 75th percentile Feral will not beat out a 75th percentile outlaw rogue. But again, there isn’t a raid out there where everyone in the raid is playing at the 75th percentile.
That’s why I linked logs. A well performing Feral will beat out a bad performing Warrior. Which is why you don’t go off of rankings lists.
A good player with a bad spec will out perform a bad player with a good spec. Which is why individual performance matters and individual performance doesn’t line with overall data. That’s the entire point. Otherwise we’d see Feral at the bottom of EVERY RAID LOG REGARDLESS OF DIFFICULTY OR COMPOSITION. But that’s not the case.
And you’d understand this if you understood the data and how it’s compiled and presented. Which you do not.
I never brought up my performance at all as I rarely ever raid, and if i do never seriously. I simply used “me personally” to represent Ferals since i’m a Feral player as well. Where I rank as a single data point in the worlds collectiveness of data points means nothing. Where I rank inside my raid group is what matters. I can be on a bad class and still be an asset to a raid group, whereas you could be on a good class and your performance could be a detriment.
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Well, we’ll see what they have in store for Balance druid for the heroic week tuning (and resto), should be today most likely.
Right now Boomy is about 20% behind arcane mage / other outliers, and approximately 15% behind most “middle of the pack” specs right now, which is an absurdly high amount. And Resto is similar, around 15% healing behind. Right now both of them are basically non-viable for mythic raiding.
For Boomy, Starfall feels completely pointless to press currently, it hardly does anything. Both of our spenders are still massively undertuned. We are in dire need of some sort of aura buff (along the lines of 8%-10%) plus further buffs to starfall + starsurge on top of that.
Resto needs about a straight up 10% healing buff. This is the worst state I’ve seen druid in for quite some time.
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Well atleast Balance is the best at something 
.
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So in your world where interclass performance is apparently meaningless, what reason does a balance druid have NOT to just go level and gear someone who isn’t completely sucking? Because interclass differences are big enough that even taking comfort in playing X or Y spec into the picture most decent players will see increases in performance not long after switching to a spec that, yknow, doesnt suck. A 75% Druid can hit 75% on a new class in not too much time, and be doing better even at 40-50%. a 100% parse druid could easily go get another class and be doing 80-95% in a matter of time, while starting to do more damage/healing/mitigation within a few weeks or so with the differences we’re seeing here. Because for the most part a good player isn’t chained to one class, they’d need time to adjust but would be good on another class that isn’t actively holding them back. But you seem to be refusing to acknowledge this.
Your reading comprehension is seriously lacking. I think ive pointed it out in the last 3 replies that a feral is undertuned compared to other specs
Its funny how you all keep bringing up that strawman.
But lets look at the logs i posted. Are those Druids holding their raid back? Are they a detriment? No. With a “bad” class they’re doing better than those with “good” classes.
This whole argument is coming from the whole premise that “feral needs a 15% buff in ST to be competitive”.
And the truth is that (and this goes for any spec), playing better will increase your performance more than any buff.
People arent playing at 100% to where their spec is whats holding the raid back. Nor are people playing in raid groups where everyone is performing on the same level to where Feral is always on the bottom of the dps charts. Not to mention, all specs are designed to clear content. You can clear mythic raids with the entire raid parsing greens.
Yes Ferals are tuned lower than other specs.
No Ferals do not need buffs to be “competitive”
No that is not me saying i dont have my own issues with Feral
And no, that does not mean I won’t accept buffs to the spec.
Off to your next strawman now
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