Here’s the thread, the math is in there. No world buffs and fury/prot falls apart. For progression Twins and beyond, it’s deep prot. There are more number crunching threads out there, but the only thing holding fury/prot up is world buffing. After those are gone, threat and mitigation are both lower than standard deep prot.
Math doesn’t lie.
Bosses base chance to miss or be dodge/parry/block against you is 4.4% (5.6% crit chance)
@ 440 defense these increase to 10% each. (0% crit chance)
Thus your hit table looks something like
10% miss
10% parry
10% Dodge
10% Block
15% Crush
0% Crit
Fill with regular hit
Now you can push off crushes by filling the rest of the table with +60% flat Dodge/block/parry on your gear/talents or the use of shield block.
With shield block you need a total of 25% avoidance to push crit/crush off the table.
@300 defense you have a baseline of 17.6% before any gear or talents.
@200 defense (Unbalance) you have a baseline of 1.6% before any gear or talents.
So my question is what does this even mean?
In that very thread, the person posting bad math was shown to be arbitrarily pulling values out of thin air and ignoring half of the equation in the process. Did you only read half of the thread? /giggle
Yes I did, the math is sound. Just because you have a confirmation bias supporting the current garbage meta doesn’t make it wrong.
Have fun progressing in Naxx with fury/prot!!
Or you learn how to play
Ah, so that’s a no. You saw a poster put up numbers who also agreed with your position that Deep Prot is superior and called it a day. Given you haven’t actually shown any skill or knowledge about Tanking in this thread, I doubt your ability to follow that thread at all.
…is this supposed to be some snarky retort? HAHA
Clear AQ40 first before you go attacking folks about how to play this game. Fury/Prot will remain viable and superior to Deep Prot all the way through the end of Naxx.
I was about to say the same thing. Interesting how that works in hyperbole land.
Please provide your work for us. I’d be very interested to see the math for this conclusion.
Couple things that would be great: Buff/Consumables used (Raid and World), TPS/TPR values, Gear sets, Talent builds
Math is in the thread I linked.
Sorry I’m kind of blind I guess I can’t seem to find the:
in that thread, do you mind?
Did you clear aq40 yet. If not, see above
Stacking defense allows Shield Block to stay active longer, as more attacks will dodge/parry/miss and not eat Shield Block charges. Stacking defense skill will also help to just straight up avoid (miss/dodge/parry) Unbalancing Strike.
400 defense is extremely helpful for when Shield Block isn’t up and Unbalancing Strike lowers your defense. When your defense isn’t lowered below 300, your chance to be crushed stays at 15% instead of sharply rising.
You get a free 2k threat for being the closest entity to the boss after a teleport.
You have 100 rage built up for each teleport.
Your DPS spend a lot of time moving sides, and will therefore often be late in arriving to DPS the boss after a teleport.
Twins isn’t a DPS race so you’re more than welcome to take your time by easing up on the DPS. This isn’t Vael that needs to be killed now now.
Twin Emps is one of the few fights where offensive stats aren’t very useful.
I went prot and stacked mitigation gear to help tank due to this fight specifically causing problems for some of our other tanks.
I have no issues holding threat over our 90%+ parsing warriors with the threat boost on port. Only time I’ve come close to losing threat was when they used MRP + reck + DW on the last 20%–but this did actually get one of them killed on our fury prot tank side since their TPS goes way down with a shield and mitigation gear.
Fight seems designed for the boomer tank almost perfectly. I’m sure someone can dual wield tank it…but the debuff pretty much requires a shield for most, making shield slam a good threat alternative. Bloodthirst is great for snap threat, but the 2500 threat bump on teleport + melee always being ~1second behind on run in gives you a solid lead.
I also prefer the prot spec for Ouro as well just because I can build threat with a shield. Had multiple fury prot attempts where starting tank would get punted and he’d turn to crit me for 6500+ (we keep tanks in to build backup threat/try to keep others from instagibbing). To be on the safe side I generally try to build threat with a shield now–and fury prot is terrible for that if you don’t have aggro. But the biggest benefit is being able to grab tactical mastery and intercept back to Ouro on every other sweep if you’re the tank.
So yeah, I’ll probably go back fury prot when we get to 2 hour clears and our team will have buffs on ouro/cthun, but deep prot definitely has some use cases in AQ40 that I like.
But these aren’t Mitigation effects, that is they aren’t reliable. Block, notably on a fight like Twin Emps, does little more than act like an anemic Dodge/Parry/Miss, in that you take less damage but the real kicker is that it helps push Crit/Crush off the table. You can no more rely on Block than you can on Dodge, so for worst-case gear planning, you ignore it.
The only class that can reasonably use Block as a reliable source of Mitigation is the very rare, very well geared, Protection Paladin. Even then, Unbalancing Strike would render their Block unreliable as well.
Which largely helps with reactive Healers who are stressed about blowing their mana pools. I get I’m heavily biased having mostly healed with a Druid and Paladin, but matching the swings and downranking enough to keep going while also sustaining the Tank is all I do. I assume some spikes from mistimed Shield Block or just flat out RNG. Health pools are massive compared to incoming damage, outside of the very very few bosses that have a spike mechanic.
Deep prot is a meme or a crutch for bad healers. It’ll never be the classic meta.
I think that’s part of the issue with these discussions. I frequently see Healadins being brought up. You have to remember that Horde doesn’t have these, nor do we have the threat monsters that human warriors can become due to the sword bonus.
There’s a distinct difference depending on race and faction as to the effectiveness of fury/prot vs deep prot. Also, block is insanely reliable. You just have to know when to hit the active mitigation on it to guarantee those two blocks.
Both specs have a skill cap, but as more effective gear is available, my experience is that deep prot just is better overall for mitigation and long term threat for longer fights.
Past Twin Emps, the fights are mostly marathons, not sweat lodge.
Have you even been in aq? We have 2 groups clearing atm and we run exactly 0 deep prot tanks.
Our gates opened late, so we’ve only just started doing AQ. I do like the deep prot playstyle better, but with the current gear level fury/prot just works better. You lose a very minor amount of mitigation (from the arms tree actually, since you don’t have the points to get the parry) and pick up a lot of scaling threat talents. Plus it actually lets you do something when you aren’t needed to tank, or even if you’re just not tanking the entire fight. (Deep prot was a lot better at the start of the game because it had so much more threat gen that didn’t rely on gear. This also means it didn’t scale, so deep prot got left behind)
I checked the gear I used for Twin Emps from our first run, best I recall. Was at about 5,900HP, 7.7k armor, 363 Defense, and 15.5% Block 13% Dodge 7.5% Parry. I used Styleens, and I definitely think it’s worth it. I try to use that trinket any time a fight needs a shield equipped. Using 5/8 Wrath, with edgemaster, lionheart, and drake talon.
How is your health so low? Our tanks are breaking 10k as fury prot.
You have Shaman who also have multiple ranks to their single-target healing, and you still have Druids as well. Paladins are particularly adept at just FoL spamming to match melee swings, but every Healer can do it. And Orcs have their own bonuses. The real kicker is the lack of Salvation across the raid, but Horde also get Windfury as well which benefits the Tank. It isn’t even to be sure, but Horde aren’t helpless in this regard.
It literally is not, by definition. Between boss standard swing timer, instant attacks, boss parry-haste, and any additional adds that might be involved, very few fights let you keep a high uptime on Block, especially when you consider what fights actually kill Tanks. Vael and Nef probably present the biggest threats while also eating through charges the least, and neither of these fights are particularly bad. Contrast that with Broodlord, any of the Drakes, and Twins, and keeping up Block is just not something you can rely upon saving you. Attacks will blow through without being Blocked.
Shield Block in its current state is nothing like Active Mitigation on Retail. You are guaranteed two Blocks, for which you have abysmal scaling. It can help avoid Crit/Crush, but these aren’t even threats most of the time, and the places they are Shield Block can be rendered useless anyway.
Your experience is simply incorrect with what we know about Classic. Future expansions? Sure. But not right now.
This is also false. Twins present an annoying mechanic of constant threat drops and forced repositioning without a strict timer of any kind, and for this reason alone it tends to be a time consuming boss. On speed runs, Twins is the 2nd slowest kill behind C’thun, and C’thun is only slow because of the arbitrary wait times to get to his stomach, plus the RNG of who gets picked.
Looking ahead into Naxx, guilds are going to slaughter most of the fights in very short time frames. Ouro is a 2mil health boss that people are killing well under a minute for speed guilds. No WB guilds that are a fair bit more casual, like mine, down him in 2 and a half minutes, or put another way, we can rather casually pump out 13.2k DPS, and most of us weren’t even using consumables. That puts us currently killing Patchwerk around 5 min at our current gear, which is largely unimproved over our BWL stuff since we’ve been getting mostly Tank/Healer gear. In another 3-4 months worth of gearing, everyone is going to have far more DPS. A sub 4min kill is well within reach.
Take that same Ouro DPS with zero upgrades or consumables applied to other bosses and…
And on…
We will be sprinting most of our fights in Naxx. Maexxna will require us to put on the brakes since a lot of guilds will likely risk pushing her into Enrage phase right before the 2nd AoE stun, but otherwise no. The only fights that will take “longer” will be the artificially inflated health fights like Patchwerk, Thaddius, and Loatheb, and the dumb time gated ones like Gothik and potentially 4HM (assuming we can’t zerg one down). Guilds can and should push for these kinds of thresholds because with AQ40 gear, 14-15k raid-wide DPS is more than easily obtainable and it allows you to obliterate more than half the bosses in Naxx before they even do their hard mechanic check.
And if your guild actually acquires world buffs and uses full consumables? Yeah… Naxx will fall fast.