Does Deep Prot Comeback?

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
70

You’re delusional. An AQ geared tank heading into naxx will have 30%+ crit without world buffs. To put it as plainly as possible, Shield Slam does not directly scale with anything except block value. Yes, it can crit, yes, Impale will boost that crit damage, but it is completely unaffected by AP in any way. Bloodthirst scales. That’s why fury prot is outright superior for threat under any circumstance. Flurry is the largest TPS boost to HS spam in the talent trees. Enrage is an outright better damage buff. The utility of swapping to DW for extra threat and then swapping to shield to have every bit the same inherent mitigation of deep prot is why fury prot is an outright superior raid spec.

The better the gear, the bigger the gap between fury prot and deep prot. Deep prot is for new tanks with very little gear; it’s a spec that fills in the gaps with flat amounts of threat and utility.

Consider what you’re saying when you spout off “fury prot is only better with world buffs”. What are world buffs? They’re stat boosts. What is AQ/Naxx gear compared to BWL gear? It’s stat boosts. The gap between BWL and AQ gear is large, and the gap between BWL and Naxx gear is massive. Without any world buffs and only AQ gear entering into Naxx, fury prot has better threat generation, more options to generate threat with a DW swap and Deathwish (which you’re happy to ignore exists), and loses ZERO mitigation

Stop giving people bad information. Deep prot is outscaled at the end of BWL.

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71

Also to add here, impale only adds 20% to the EXTRA critical strike damage, it’s not a flat +20% damage to your crit, it’s only +20% of the extra damage the crit adds to your normal attack. I’m not saying this eloquently hope you understand what I mean.

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They’d have to do more than just remove world buffs though.

I’ve had wipes in a raid with world buffs. Everyone dies, no world buffs.

Fights are still absurdly fast. World buffs help immensely, but this is still a different game just because of fury/prot speccing.

73

Yes. It makes your crits do 220% of regular damage instead of 200. AKA a 10% damage boost on your crits.

Twin Emps is strictly a gear check. Tanks really don’t understand the value of defensive gear for that fight. Patchwerk is a fight that you can’t wear offensive gear on. Twin Emps is a fight that you shouldn’t wear offensive gear on.

74

This is demonstrably wrong. A prot spec has at least six more talent points to put into toughness and deflection. Minor? Sure. Zero? Not the case.

and the gap between BWL and Naxx gear is massive.

Conqueror’s Battlegear is a pretty huge upgrade on BWL stuff but have you looked at Naxxramas gear? There’s not really a lot of huge threat upgrades for warriors in the early bit. Dreadnaught mostly has a crap ton of block value and defence on it. Girdle of the mentor is pretty equal to Onslaught Girdle. Legplates of Carnage I guess?

What are world buffs? They’re stat boosts. What is AQ/Naxx gear compared to BWL gear? It’s stat boosts.

World buffs grossly outweigh any upgrades from gear, as you well know. Scaling goes completely haywire when you add 340 attack power (worth what, 170 str? When was the last time you got 170 strength from a gear upgrade?), 15%+15 stats and 10% crit (the sum of all the gear you wear on Twin Emperors gives 9% crit).

If you look at your last raid on Twin Emperors (yes here I go log scouring again) your average bloodthirst drops from 943 to 532 when world buffs fall off.

532 x 1.495 = 795 threat per bloodthirst. If you were protection with styleens your block value would be ~107. Your average threat per shield slam (assuming a 25% crit rate) would be (350+107) x 1.275 = 582 582 + 250 = 832 832 x 1.495 = 1,244.

You’re actually losing 449 threat every 6 seconds vs shield slam. Feel free to correct me if I’m mathing wrong.

You’re gaining 3.6% threat from enrage at a 12% uptime (well 6% uptime, but only tanking half the time because it’s Twin Emperors). You’re also gaining 12% more from your autoattacks from a 40% flurry uptime but losing 10% from not having one handed specialization. You’re also losing 10% damage 25% of the time from not having impale.

Technically, you’re also losing the parry haste from less points in deflection. And getting parried more often because of flurry, increasing damage taken.

Maybe I’m delusional, but that sounds roughly equal to me.

75

Why are you looking at twin emps? The twin emps fight favors stacking mitigation gear because of unbalancing strike.

Why are you comparing my fury prot to some other tank’s deep prot as opposed to my own deep prot? You’re putting two numbers together that don’t prove anything about the other. You have to find the same player with the access to the same gear doing the same fight in both specs. Then you compare those numbers. I’m not losing anything compared to random deep prot parse you’re referencing. You hack.

Let’s put world buffs into perspective real quick. Only the ZG buff, the health buff from DMN, and the haste from Rend buff scale in any way; and DMF if it’s available. The flat boosts from dragonslayer, songflower, and moldar’s moxie all make relatively less of an impact on player parses as the gear gets better. An extra 120 or 200 ap, or 10% crit during phase 1 in MC is the same flat boost during phase 6 in Naxx. Yet, despite that the world buffs make a relatively smaller impact as gear scales, fury prot still holds a giant threat lead over deep prot as that gear gets better.

Did you add “in the early bit” so you can cherry pick spider quarter loot that isn’t BiS for tanks? Naxx has immense upgrades for all classes, including fury prot. What a useless and stupid thing to say.

76

Why are you looking at twin emps? The twin emps fight favors stacking mitigation gear because of unbalancing strike.

That should be obvious. We’re talking about the viability of protection in Naxxramas. Naxxramas has a whole bunch of fights like that that favour defensive stats. Maexxna, Loatheb, Patchwerk, Four Horsemen, Sapphiron, Kel’Thuzad heck even Faerlina since the dps starts on the adds and she can land 8k crits when frenzied.

I’m not losing anything compared to random deep prot parse you’re referencing. You hack.

I’m referencing you, in your equipped gear with styleen’s impeding scarab (which I assume you’d equip if you were deep prot) and elementium reinforced bulwark, which you are using. If you were specced protection instead of fury.

Your block value would be ~107. 54+19+24 + 10 from STR.

You would, on average, gain 449 threat every 6 seconds if you had shield slam instead of bloodthirst. Unless I’m mathing incorrectly?

Edit: Actually I think I did math slightly wrong. With boss armour you’re actually only losing 318 threat every 6 seconds.

77

You’re piecing together a shield slam threat value that never existed during that encounter from presumed values on my gear. You’re then taking that value and placing in a vacuum next to my bloodthirst values, ignoring all other sources of threat generation, to conclude that I’m losing threat by being fury prot over deep prot. Melee is ignored. Heroic Strike is ignored. Revenge is ignored. My entire sheet of dps/TPS is ignored to pit my real Bloodthirst values against a hypothesized Shield Slam value which never occurred in game because I wasn’t playing that spec for that fight.

How dense and daft and all the rest do you have to be to not understand the horrendous flaw in your analysis, in your argument, and in your conclusions. I am truly baffled by the sheer ineptitude of your mind.

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78

pulls out a moonstone

79

Perhaps you simply missed reading my post so I’ll quote it for you.

"You’re gaining 3.6% threat from enrage at a 12% uptime (well 6% uptime, but only tanking half the time because it’s Twin Emperors). You’re also gaining 12% more from your autoattacks from a 40% flurry uptime but losing 10% from not having one handed specialization. You’re also losing 10% damage on abilities 25% of the time from not having impale.

Technically, you’re also losing the parry haste from less points in deflection. And getting parried more often because of flurry, increasing damage taken."

You also missed that I said in strictly shield slam vs bloodthirst terms, you’re losing threat in that situation.

I also said

“Maybe I’m delusional, but that sounds roughly equal to me.”

Revenge is ignored.

You’ll have to explain to me how fury gains threat over protection from revenge.

I doubt very much you’ll do any such thing though, since all you seem interested in doing is trying to bully people with personal attacks instead of discussing the game. As usual.

80

You’ve completely ignored total tps to focus on my Bloodthirst threat values against fabricated shield slam threat values, and then said it means something. It’s a joke. You’re clown shoes.

81

My tank story. I leveled as Arms Prot to 60 and went Deep Prot early on for dungeons. I wanted more damage and easier time finishing up quests so went Impale Prot as 3rd tank. I felt useless on bosses where only 1 or 2 tanks were needed so decided to try Fury Prot. I liked the damage output when not needed to tank, but really disliked losing Anger Management and Tactical Mastery. Just doesn’t feel like a tank without being able to stance dance.

So as 3rd tank I had to keep Imp Demo shout which Deep Prot can’t max and wanted Anger Management. So decided to try out 7/31/13. It was great since I kept 10 rage for Mocking Blow, Intercept and Pummel. Then a main raider rerolled Warrior and wanted a tank position so I went DPS. ZG came out and I tanked it quite a bit as Fury DPS, but I knew I could do better on Hakkar with 15% threat in Defensive stance.

When a tank gave up on raiding I was put back into tank rotation as 4th tank. Now with AQ20 and ZG Idol runs I bit the bullet and went Fury Prot again. Deep Prot and Anger Management doesn’t make up for the loss of Deathwish, Enrage and my damage as a tank imo. I still keep the important tanking talents and wear a shield when it’s needed. It also feels good being able to keep up with other melee when I’m not needed to tank.

AQ40 is out now and Sartura adds are a pain. So instead of Imp Heroic Strike I’m testing Imp Revenge for the chance to stun. On second week of testing so far and Imp Revenge doesn’t work that well on Sartura adds as I hoped, but it helps a ton picking up big bugs on Twin Emps. I take less damage and healers are free to help others a bit more.

My Warrior’s guild doesn’t require world buffs or consumes. If consumes are needed the guild provides them for the fight. Tanks still use their own FAPs and Stoneshield Potions. So your experience might be different depending on setting.

82

I understand all of this! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

83

Could you just show an impale prot gearset for us? I’ve done the math before and I can do it again, I’m assuming we’ll end up @ Fury/prot superiority again.

85

Probably in TBC or OT for certain bosses in naxx just to take a hit. As in patchwerk depends on how it plays out.

In melee range top 3 on threat MT will be hit with a 8 to 9k melee swings.

Then 2nd/3rd hateful strike will be 20k to 27K split. Mitigation could assist in the fight.

It’s a tank and spank but if either of the tanks go down or lose threat you can say bye to a melee dps every second.

Then you have Frenzy
When Patchwerk’s health reaches 5%, he will gain 25% increased damage and 40% increased melee haste. This buff also applies to the damage caused by Hateful Strike. Which will cast melee swing 5. Secs and hateful strikes .5 secs.

That fight revolves around healers and tanks.

86

You dont need to spec for mitigation when you can just swap out a few peices of gear as needed.

87

Those sound like changes Blizzard might make and deserve their own thread.

88

Tanking gear has some agility now, but it’s replaced in Naxx by heavy amounts of strength, stamina, and auxiliary stats like Hit and Defense. Dreadnaught has a disgusting amount of stamina compared to everything before it, and the offensive plate has utterly insane amounts of strength (40+ in some cases).

89

Very few warrior will actually wear T3. It most likely will be a fringe-set for the one or two fights where a defense set is actually optimal and in that case it will be worn by 2 or 3 tanks.

4 horsemen might be an exception but I personally doubt it.

All speculation though - we will see come Naxx.

However - the best spec for tanks will 99.9% likely still be fury/prot.

90

I’ll totally wear T3. In Stormwind. Gnome Death Knight cosplay ftw.

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