Trouble finding a guild

Wyrmrest Accord
1

Why is it that finding a guild that doesn’t have racist members is such abig ask?

4 Likes
2

Please, do go on. :popcorn:

2 Likes
3

I just seem to keep finding guild after guild that is okay with their members being racist, or is racist themselves. No specifics, I’m not here to trash talk.

1 Like
4

I want to say that I have no idea what your talking about, but I actually have a great idea of what your talking about. It was a really terrible feeling to slowly realize that the leader of an old guild I was in was not at all shy about his white supremacy.

It’d be obvious of me to say that not all guilds are like that, but I also think you’re entitled to a sit-down with a guild’s leadership when you join it. Just like how, in a job interview, you’re there to evaluate the company just as much as the company is evaluating you, you shouldn’t feel shy about asking a GM directly about something that would be a dealbreaker for you.

You probably can’t just say “are you a racist?” to them, but you can certainly be honest with them. “I’ve been in several guilds in a row that I’ve left because of their members’ racial insensitivity, and I’d like a guarantee from you that if I encounter that here, it won’t be tolerated” is a perfectly legitimate thing to ask, and their answer, no matter what they say, should be pretty revealing.

4 Likes
5

The funny thing is that I got that assurance. And after the first time it happened, I was feeling good. But now, I’m essentially being told I’m over-reacting and that most of the guild doesn’t know about or care about the white-supremacist aspect of something that was said. Which is, I think, the entire friggin’ point.

6

You’d think it would be an easy thing to find but it’s not - between the younger crowd trying to be super edgy and then older people who are flat-out racist, it’s infuriating at times. I think the worst part is the casual racism - GMs/leaders/members who feel that because they only use racist slurs against Jews or homophobic language they aren’t really hateful or racist- and of course, I’m overreacting. It’s absolutely wearing. I’ve found that it’s less prevalent in “mature” guilds/guilds with minimum age requirements, but it’s still there.

2 Likes
7

This has definitely happened to me. You join and people are throwing around racist terms and laughing, and you just kind of casually excuse yourself. Usually happens when people who are friends beforehand start a guild, so they can be the boss, and nobody can tell them they can’t talk that way. I’ve found, anyway.

3 Likes
8

Guilds created for the sole purpose of being able to boss people around and act above the law are bad guilds. Drop that like a freaking hot potato.

1 Like
9

It’s to the point where i’ve had this string of guilds doing this that the community has almost killed the game for me. WoW isn’t fun to play by yourself, but it’s less fun when the people you’re playing with are being racist. So if you know of a guild horde side that isn’t like this, please let me know, cause I’m pretty close to just cancelling my sub.

1 Like
10

A lot of times, it’s also caused by leadership not wanting to stir the pot, so they let way more slide than they should. I can speak from experience that, yeah, it can suck to have to pull people aside and go “What you just said is not acceptable, this is your warning.” But you have to do it. You have to cut off that rot before it spreads. And it will spread.

I’ve been in everything from guilds to Facebook groups where leaderships don’t want to go to bat for people the way they should, because they don’t want the confrontation, and that leadership style always ends in the group dying, or worse.

If you’re looking to socialize in an environment that does not tolerate that stuff, I know I’m biased, but I suggest the Chamber of Heart discord. You can more than likely find a guild that’s for good people too.

We do not tolerate racism, homophobia, transphobia, religious intolerances, sexism… none of it. End of story. You see it, and you can tell me or a moderator, and we will shut that :poop: down immediately.

2 Likes
13

First off I’m sorry you’re dealing with that.

The purpose of this reply is to discuss the nuances in enforcing anti-bigotry code if conduct in player run spaces such as guilds, communities, and Discord servers.

Summary
It’s actually really hard to enforce anti-bigotry policies because there are some people who just don’t know better sometimes, there are people who slur themselves, and there may be some value in trying to educate someone who has a crap take. It’s hard to figure out how many chances are too many, if mistakes should have a statue of limitations, etc. There’s also micro aggressions which are the hardest thing to deal with.

Zero tolerance and the uninformed: There are words in the modern American vernacular that are slurs that we simply don’t know are slurs. People in different areas of the world with different education levels may simply not be aware of the harm.

For example, the “g” word many Americans would use to identify the female protagonist in Disney’s Hunchback of Notre Dame is in fact a slur for the Romani people.

The term “trap” is popular on the internet and fetishy culture, used in situations where dude looks like a lady and in regards to futanari. It could be argued that it’s actually a highly insensitive slur. Why? Entrapment is an excuse used in court by people to justify their murders of transgender women, especially trans women of color. The truth is trans women aren’t trying to entrap anyone, they’re afraid of being murdered.

Using the term trap to label a futanari (which is in itself a fetishy view of interested people or transwomen) is arguably grossly insensitive and dehumanizing. Some would disagree and some people may be totally unaware of thing like that. Holding someone accountable for not knowing instead of informing them is unfair.

Reclamation and Self-Slurs: One problem with slurs is that they are reclaimed by people, who integrate them into their vernacular. African American English Vernacular includes the n word. LGBTQIA+ people may call themselves a variety of reclaimed slurs. This is totally valid, but not everyone among these demographics are comfortable with that. These things are arguably fine among a group of friends but not in a community space. It’s up to each guild and space to decide if it’s okay because the person saying it is that demographic, or asking the person to not, having there be no exceptions, or even kicking someone out on the spot. Without a no exceptions policy, people will slur and claim to be the demographic when they’re not. It’s out of line to ask them to prove it. So honestly the best bet is to not allow reclaimed terms. The caveat is that zero tolerance means being accused of intolerance by people using reclaimed terms. It’s a catch 22.

Micro-aggressions: A lot of bad behavior I’ve witnessed in the past couple years as a Discord mod is micro-aggressions. These are low key or subtle hate speech on its own that is ambiguous, or not directly, wherein if malice is not assumed just seems a little troubling. It’s hard to punish people who are committing a micro-aggression, it’s often even hard to put your finger on why the micro-aggression seems problematic. The punishments seem disproportionate to the misbehavior and reflect badly on the officers or staff. So they’re told to not do that again and given a slap on the wrist. Repeat ad nauseum. This is the reason Wyrmrest Discord has a “we can remove anyone at any time for any reason,” clause. Eventually the micro-aggressions pile up and we throw someone out even if they didn’t do one big bad remarkable thing. Overall it is not easy to deal with while trying to be fair and not assume malice.

Zero tolerance or chances? Wyrmrest Accord is actually a pretty diverse population. Different people come from different backgrounds and speak different languages. Different cultures and subcultures may have different understandings and ideas of what is right and wrong. What this means is that you might have someone well meaning but was brought up with ideals others may view as hateful, where this person is completely unaware that their hometown taught perception is not reality. Take for example the controversy over history books in the south and how they present slavery. Someone who hasn’t taken a college level history course may not have a clue. It’s not their fault that they were taught bull.

I think that kicking people who don’t know something under a zero tolerance policy doesn’t solve problems, so it may be beneficial to sit down with someone and explain it to them. However, it’s also not anyone’s job to educate people and the comfort and safety of a group’s members is important. Folks shouldn’t have to explain and justify everything. In fact, it gets tiring explaining things over and over. It’s a tough conundrum.

I prefer to tell people, “Hey that’s not okay because this,” and go from there. Sometimes it’s possible to change people’s hateful views and make them a better person. It’s up to each group to decide if they want to try.

Personal anecdote time. I took a journalism class in community college. It was my first semester being out as a trans person. I overheard some people in the newsroom calling me slurs behind my back. While I could have confronted them directly, there’s a chance I would lose my cool. I could have reported them to the dean and reduced our tiny staff to 6. I talked to the professor and with her support I decided to address the slurs like a journalist using my strong writing skills. I wrote an article about my transgender experience that puts the reader in a position where they can relate to what it felt like to be me. We got emotional letters from other trans students, for the rest of the time there other trans students sought me out for support and advice, and most importantly I got a public apology in front of the whole class because the guys who didn’t understand got to learn and empathize with what it felt like. I won an award in state level contest for that article. Had I simply complained to the dean, those people wouldn’t have learned and other students who grew in empathy or felt comfort knowing they weren’t alone would have never benefitted. There’s a real advantage to patience and education.

How many chances? Should there be a statue of limitations? So how many chances is too many? Due to the complexity of the situation it is not easy to give a solid numerical answer. There are things to guage, such as how someone respond to being told that their speech is hate speech.

When someone says, “Hey that a slur, that’s offensive, could you not do that?” There are a couple of responses I’ve seen:

  1. Arguing that it’s not and to not be so sensitive—These people are the least likely to change or empathize. They might even scream about free speech, or play victim about their slurs being met with incivility. These are probably safe with one chance, which they’ll probably burn through fast.
  2. Taking being informed as a personal attack and defending the use and not knowing—These people may be well meaning but not be aware of how to gracefully respond. They might have trouble missing social cues, and are worth trying to work with.
  3. Saying, “Oh I didn’t know. I’m sorry. I’ll be more careful.” These people are the ones to invest patience in. They want to get better. However, some people will repeatedly say this then keep making the same mistakes over and over again and are actually malicious. So their follow-through is extremely important.

It’s entirely situational.

Throwing out people doing micro-aggressions: This is extremely difficult. The most effective way to do it is to keep track of the hate speech, the passive aggressive memes, and so on to such a time when you have a solid reason for action and a history of trying to correct the behavior. Then simply saying that the space is not right for them, wishing them well, and sending them on their way. Records are the cover your booty if they try to cause trouble.

Should there be a statue of limitations on slurs? Sometimes people change for the better. They correct their behavior. If when given a chance to stop slurring they did so, it might be worth not escalating up a penalty pyramid if they, months or years later, say something they didn’t realize was a slur. People can get better sometimes, people have bad days, and people change. This is not to say that they are entitled to forgiveness from those they hurt, just that from an administrative standpoint their probation may be worth continuing especially if their net contribution is generally positive. Bad judgment or goofing shouldn’t be held against someone forever. (For clarity, I’m writing about people saying bigoted hurtful things and actually growing and changing. This doesn’t apply to sexual harassment, kiddy diddlers, or narcissistic abuse.)

Saving face and bystanders: One problem I see a lot not only with player runned spaces but also with Blizzard is the policy of not telling people what actions are taken. This can be frustrating for people because they don’t see the talks and punishments. The reason for this is that people are less likely to ball up, wall up, and go on the defensive if they’re approached privately and allowed to save face. It’s really hard to balance this with appearing to take direct action. I think private communications work more but sometimes public responses are required to make others feel better. There are some situations when putting a word out is necessary to also warn people not misbehaving but witnessing misbehavior so they too know it is not appropriate.

Recommendation
I think your concerns are valid, OP. You have the right to a comfortable and safe experience. Im not sure what groups you were with before or what your experience was but that stinks. My suggestion is to think about what you want people to do when these situations come up. Once you know how you personally would like to see things handled, you should interview people about their ways of handling racism or other bigoted behavior. From there you’ll be able to decide if some place is right for you. It’s hard to find a match when your own ideal approach is undefined.

13 Likes
14

Fantastic feedback and insight on the subject, Zan. Thank you for this thorough response.

I do agree with Ursola’s suggestion as well. It’s integral for players to use interviews to help them evaluate a new guild before joining. Spending time with a guild before joining or applying is also a good way to see if they’ll be a good fit for you.

5 Likes
17

I agree definitely with the two posters above. At least when we recruit for my guild, despite how we recruit(also use trade chat infrequently), we like to sit down and discuss the guild, and their own expectations with the guild, and what specifically they themselves are looking for when joining. We often have told people that they do not seem like a fit for us, and really press that we are a community, that we are all adults, and that respect over all for everyone is highly important. That includes if someone is offending you, talking to them, as well as rules in place that say that if you are told you are offending someone, to please use restraint in the future when it comes to whatever you were doing that offends them. This doesn’t have the effect of keeping us constantly on our toes afraid of offending others like many would think, because we also make sure we’re recruiting people of like mind into the guild in the first place. Sure there’s some minor slurs due to colloquial useage and different locations/nationalities of our members, but we are all overly accepting of each other and really focus on actually building friendships and raport with each other.

So yes, @op, there are guilds that are what you want, but it may take some time to find one that fits you well, and just throwing yourself in guilds is really not going to help you find what you want. Be prepared to ask the recruiter hard questions. One of the things I love as a recruiter is when people ask me about any possible downsides of the guild, because it allows me to actually tell people straight up the things that might turn others off about the members we have, or things we do/don’t do, or expect from people who join. Even if you waste 15-20 minutes talking to the recruiter only to find out the guild is not for you, that can save you more then a week or two from just being in the wrong guild.

3 Likes
18

Thanks for the praise. :peacock:

Is the technical memo type style with purpose, summary, and conclusion/recommendation a good approach to posting this type of thing or is it just weird?

2 Likes
19

I have a preference for it myself, but I can’t speak for others. In this case I think it was very useful.

20

I think it is. That was a really great write-up. Covered a lot and was very thorough.

2 Likes