Leavers will just circumvent this and make everyone else suffer the consequences. The consequencers for habitual leavers would be next to none, but to everyone else it would be a lot.
Key not going as I like? Meh, I’ll log an alt and let someone else take the punishment.
No alts to play? Meh, I’ll afk and let someone else take the punishment.
I still want to play, but not this key? I’ll exit dungeon and do some weeklys or mount farming.
I’m feeling malevolent? I’ll pull everything in sight to wipe us over and over, bonus points if I’m a hunter who can just feign death and save on repair bills.
A leaver punishment would only hurt the ones it isn’t intended to punish, and would be a negative for the game. If anything, incentivize staying through bizarre conditions. How do you do that though? Not a clue. What would convince you of staying to finish a key where you feel like the other players are intentionally abusing you? Because that’s what you’d have to solve.
Ban wave isn’t the answer. A restructuring of the M+ system is. Why are keys random? They should be like Delves. You prove you can do a +10, you can start an M+ at 11 or less whenever you want. Yes, I know that means targeting specific dungeons for specific gear will be a lot easier, who cares? People already do that by only applying for specific dungeons and rerolling their keys anyway.
That alone wouldn’t fix the toxic mentality of bailing on a single wipe, but it’s a start, and would be less punishing to the key owner
First issue would be solving the feeling of being intentionally abused, as in PuGs one maight indeed be abusing you, but intentionally? doubtful unless they are making obvious things, like pulling more when the current group of mobs is giving you issues, pulling big/boss when healer needs to drink, etc.
I think the main this is people need to be patent, maybe not so much in 14s and up, but for ranges where those that have goals based on set things, like rating, sure. I am not hard to convince, as I take an edison view of failure (I did not fail x times in making the light bulb, I found x ways to not make a light bulb, so for me it is I did not fail to time the key, I found a way not to time the key).
They could put a cap in this with the vision system, make it just as or more worthwhile if farming a particular piece in lower key levles after the first at the high one.
I just wish i wont be that kind of loser who depends much on carries. I prefer to be myself who does his best to be the carrier than the carried.
Just to avoid headache, i would prefer to be normal who wants to gate unqualified players on M+. I can carry up to an extent. Should i go on with somebody else i feel not qualified for the key, if it failed, i would blame myself for my failure to carry. I wont leave the key and stay to the end if the party wants it. But i cant guarantee everyone else in the party would stay like me.
And how would you do that? Doesn’t matter if it’s intentional or not, if I feel like they’re intentionally abuse me I’m subjected to bad time that I’m punished if I remove myself from. It can because they hurl slurs at me, or it can be because they can’t sustain 10M dps in aoe pulls, it doesn’t matter. To make it work, you need to remove the feeling of players being abused.
It is more a stage by stage approach, like if you can take care of the feeling of the abuse being intentional, the feeling of being abused should follow in short order
A sure sign of intentional abuse
Less likely to be intentional, but could be a sign of other factors, like leader brought one that was meta just because it was meta and they know nothing on how to make the most of it,
I never feel like I am being abused unless people start slinging slurs at me or intentionally pulling mobs I don’t normally pull or some such. I might get frustrated with them if they don’t pull certain DPS or fail a mechanic that should be fairly obvious, but I never feel like they are abusing me.
As I said before
This is another reason why pugging M+ keys is like a vacuum, it majorly SUCKS. In addition to this, I think some need to look at potential positives from the key, like learning how the better handle offensive CDs and when defensive ones are needed, or what mobs are easy to deal with in lower keys but deadly in the higher ones.
And how would that be done? You see, we can acknowledge that the problem exists, but so far nobody is presenting a solution where the good outweighs the bad. Ever single solution offered so far has been open for endless abuse, making the innocent suffer rather than it’s intended targets.
So what’s needed isn’t a punishment for leavers, but to change the mentality regarding “failures” in m+.
Then the problem with leavers would remain the same. What’s to say that I don’t know all these mechanics inside out (or at least I perceive myself to do such), but the rest of the group wants to learn? In that case I’d be justified in leaving, because there’s nothing for me to gain except the joy of doing charity work (if you enjoy such).
What everyone that suffers through these problems need to do is learn how to communicate before the key starts. Make sure you all have the same goals and intentions, and that you’re willing to end on similar premises. Yes, queue times will be longer, but you won’t have any problems anymore. Don’t like dealing with longer queues? Enjoy potentially dealing with the consequences of your own (lack of) actions.
Or if you are the kind to try and make friends by trying to make light of the failure, like “oops, looks my eyes were bigger then my skill there” or some such. Another way to look at it is the ones that drop the group when things don’t need to go their way need to do the same thing a lot tell others when they come here complaining about a failed key due to the actions of leavers: pick yourself up, dust yourself off and try again. Few, if any, succeed at higher levels then they are used to on the fist try, and even if they can do the content, it will be rough till they start getting the muscle memory to handle it.
I started putting things like filling vault while practicing key level in my notes to group leads, one that invited me to a rook 12 (this was with an untimed one under my belt) called that comment a chef’s kiss, key wound up being incomplete because I tried a bit of a biggerpull the group, and I, could not handle after the first boss (the one that if you successfully skip the pat, you want to double pull around the corner so as not to pull the pat). and the DH we had more or less dropped group after a wipe or 2 there and calling us trash.
But the biggest thing is we can’t change, or ask for Blizzard to change other people for us, we have to change our views ourselves, leavers have to change their mentalities, etc.
But in this hypothetical case I’m not failing, I am (or at least perceive myself to be) flawless while the others are clueless. It would 100% be a charity case for me to stay, no matter what perspective you take.
But they’re not the one suffering the from the leaver problem, the people who aren’t leaving are. The ones who leave see no need to change, because for them the problem doesn’t exist. You’d have to find a way to convince them to do charity cases if you’re not willing to communicate before starting the key.
That’s great, and you did (to some extent) what I suggest you should do, communicate. It’s on all of you for not making sure everyone is on the same page though, and you got to suffer the consequences for it (dh leaving).
You probably mean it in a different way, but of course you can change. You’re 100% in control of your own actions, nobody is forcing you to behave a certain way.
As far as the leaver seeing themselves as flawless, well, no body is perfect, and in group content, the success or failure is on the group as a whole. There are many times I feel liek I am the strongest member in the groupas I am holding threat and not dieing or taking much damage at all, but we are still racking up deaths, I don’t think it is a charity case as much as me FAILING to work with my group as much as I can, like I cna deal with the pulls, yet they can’t.
Doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, it’s true in their perspective. For them it’s a charity case.
It’s truly great that you perceive it differently, but that doesn’t change anything. If you want to solve the problem with leavers, you need to solve how to convince people to do more charity work.
If you can’t solve that, the best course of action is to leave things as they are and instead take matters into your own hands. Learn how to communicate, and you control wether or not the problem will exist. (Not you as in you specifically, but you as in whomever feels like people leaving keys is a problem)
Let me put it this way, if I need to convince them to do charity work, they need to convince me that their time and such is more important then mine. I keep myself humble by realizing that there is always someone better, there is always that bigger fish and that even the best of us can make mistakes/fall flat on our faces.
To me, from my perspective, leavers are the kind that would likely be happy if M+ could be down in a follow dungeon set-up, where as they don’t have to waste their precious time with us “commoners in the mud”
I don’t think people leaving keys is the problem as much as a symptom of the actual problem, people think they can treat others in game like trash because there are no consequences for doing so.
I am one that would, if asked when it is fine to leave an M+ key, or who should leave first, would likely answer “let they who made no mistakes at all be the first to leave” knowing that even the one who would be doing, in their perspective, “charity work” likely made at least 1 small mistake that we were able to over come (a missed interrupt, a slightly botched rotation, etc),
I think you’re missing the point; why would they reasonably bother doing anything for you? They’re not experiencing any problems so there’s no incentive for them to do anything about anything. There is however incentive for you to do something, as you’re the one that suffers through the problem.
Sure, and do you understand that there is so far no working suggestions on how to solve or lessen that problem? So far all suggestions are pointing to increasing the problems for everyone (mostly the people who aren’t abusive or leaving keys).
this is why things like dungeon finder and raid finder came to exist, before that it was a pain to enter instances, had to actively try hard in chats and wait forever to get groups and they were disbanding very easily
Hate to break it to you, but only looking for 2-3* on applicants is asking for carries unless you have the same rating for the same dungeon as the people you accept.
Considering single-digit keys were being outgeared by week two and +10s were being outgeared by week three, a lot of things can be brute forced by gear and it says little to nothing about personal performance.
