Total lack of Respect

Community General Discussion
122

Precisely nothing about why resilient keys are set at a +12 is “solved” by introducing charges. The only thing I can even begin to image what this would do is create an environment akin to when one is trying to rank up between leagues in games like League of Legends, since you have to win 2 out of 3 games.

Furthermore, no. Systems should be kept as simple and standardized as possible. Creating a “charge” system that allows for some failure would create another outcome of a key; timed, untimed, failed, “charge used up.”
Which means that you’d have to actually justify the added complexity which I don’t think you can do, because…

This is at best nonsensical and irrelevant, and at worst a bizarre attempt at an ad hominem since you aren’t addressing an argument or explanation given, but rather talking about having to “rethink my views” on something. I haven’t stated any views, I have stated how and why the system works as it does right now.

If you consider that a view, then address that (which you haven’t, you started talking about KSL for some reason when that’s entirely irrelevant); if you don’t view that as a view, then this becomes an ad hominem since then you are referring to something else.

All in all… what you said here is just entirely confusing and I have no idea what you are even talking about, or if you think you addressed anything of what I said. KSL is a “pushing”-achievement, Resilient keys is a mechanic denoting that you are in a position where you are pushing keys and having them reset below the pushing range would be annoying and pointless.

At best you are equating stuff that isn’t relevant to why this system mechanic exists in the first place… or else what you are saying is just plain ol’ confusing and irrelevant to a lot of stuff.

123

It would be added complexity, at least temporally, for the new influx of players doing 11s and 12s, the ones that capped out at 10s in previous seasons, or never went beyond KSH.

Also:

and

are views. ones that don’t reflect the current environment.

If you are going to call logical fallacies, make sure you get the right ones, ad hominims are attacks on you, as a person, like me calling you an elitist prick who does not have an ounce of empathy or sympathy for others under this system would be an ad hominim. What I would be guilty of, if my arguments are irrelevant, would be making a red herring or appealing to emotion.

KSL may be a “push” achievement for some, like me, who seldom, if ever, pushed beyond KSH before, but for me and others “push” has the connotation of going beyond the highest break point, currently KSL/3k rating. In essence, my argument is the system, as made, is fine for the old breakpoints and attitudes, but with the changes made, the system, as is, seems lacking. Because with achievements like KSL added, you WILL get those that are in the default mode of timing, not pushing, keys to reach that point and stop

To use one argument you made, the “why not higher” one, if Resilient keys are as you say, and meant to be only when pushing keys, why don’t they start at all timed 13s, or 14s or 15s?. I, personally, think Resilient keys are meant to aid people in getting KSL, since they start at 12, but keep out the ones that will stop at 11s just because the key won’t degrade.

1 Like
124

But at what level do you define bad? And how do you know it’s the same in all cases? Why is YOUR definition the correct one and somebody else’s wrong? Because you say so?

Disrespect should be punished. Heavily. But who decides what punishment?

Somebody leaves a key. They get instant 30 minute ban. Somebody says f and then leaves. Do they deserve a 1 hour ban? What if they go completely nuts and rant to the other 4 people and then brick the key and leave? Do they get a 30 day ban?

I personally would like anybody who goes AFK in any team PvP match in any game to get a 30 day suspension and have molten lead poured on their keyboard. You do NOT want me to have control over punishments for infractions.

1 Like
125

I personally believe there should be a 30-minutes timeout for anyone who leaves, for any reason. 30-mintes of no group, no queing and no hearthstone. If the problem persists with that person and they make a habit of leaving? Double the penalty until they learn.

Same here, you don’t want me in there making decisions… I’d personally permaban and delete their account after enough infractions without any chance of appeal. Adding a vote system for disbanding… with needing at least 4/5 to agree.

1 Like
126

They do reflect the current environment, and I explained why. Which is why I am not calling those views as they are based entirely on what would be expected from players as we have seen this happen before.

Fair enough, I used the wrong one. That’s true. Doesn’t change that you did use a fallacy I just said the wrong one. But yes, it isn’t an ad hominem (sort of, as I still stand by that describing it as a ‘view’ as opposed to what the game is actually like and how games are designed overall at the very least frames it in a bizarre way where this somehow is subjective rather than based on objective observations).

I already explained this:

127

if they ban every1 b/c of leaving, who will be left in this game?

128

I stopped playing m+ coz of stuff like this

1 Like
129

Yeah, a MINIMUM of 30 minute timeout. And I’d make it an account wide effect too. None of this log onto another toon and requeue loophole.

1 Like
130

Based on what who would expect? Blizzard, which would mean you are speaking for them, you? which would indeed make it a personal view. I, on the other hand, expect to see more hitting KSH and then looking to beat the next break point, KSl, we are not the pushers that others would be, nor are we those that would keep pushing after getting KSL, we are those that might ot might not have been able to handle 11s or even 12s last season, but saw no point in doing such as we had our highest achievement, and our highest rewards.

You tried to explain it, but it is all 12s for keys that don’t go below 12, not all 12s for keys that don’t go below 10s, In essence, the keys taking all of x level means that a player has to demonstrate they can time the key at that level, not reliably time a lower level like you are stating. The ones asking why not lower are likely those thinking “hey, I timed 10s across the board, why do I have to suffer through 9s due to a bad night” If anything, 12s are the gsateway push level as that is when you lose the weekly Xal affix and it gets replaced with the increased death penalty.

In short 12s were chosen not due to any set expectations, but because they are the lowest, at least of the 10+ range, that the affixes are consistent, to do resilient keys at 10 or 11 means asking if they want just 1 timed if they want 1 with each bargain affix timed ( so 4 of each dungeon timed at 10 or 11) etc. Maybe Blizzard expects players to bang their heads against 12s and 13s to get KSL, but they likely know players will either quit trying or get KSL and settle unless they are indeed pushers.

1 Like
131

Last time I pugged was probably the last time I will ever pug a full group.

Got to the cart section of DFC and was abused when I asked for more light, only to wipe. Was told to “Tank the mobs away from the dead bodies”, easy to say, but not so easy to do when you have less than 30% light.

Apparently the wipe was all my fault, apparently I should have been better. Shortly after that I had one of the DPS who called me bad stop pressing DPS buttons and instead started with the abusive buttons, yeh no thanks.

Be kind to each other and maybe we will stick around when wipes happen, and maybe you might also find more people pugging in the first place.

132

First of all, “Based on what who would expect?” is incoherent.
Based on what? Based on who? Expecting what? Why is it a question? ← What does this mean?

Secondly, you then start talking about me speaking for Blizzard? No? The observations I have made is stuff we know about in multiple different areas of the game (including other games as well). Putting a default barrier at one particular point creates an expected norm.

You put that norm too low, everyone rushes past it.
You put it too high, and it becomes a slog to get to.
This is why the norm is somewhere around an average and that average will dictate who your main audience is. For M+, there’s an expectation that people who want to participate in it will have the possibility to progress their character to doing 10s to fill up the vault with the highest possible reward that’s available from M+ for the purposes of progressing your character, even if the progression doesn’t stop there.

I think you are talking about people’s expectations and goals to push towards, but this why I’m saying that the average norm can’t be at the end of your expected character progression. Meaning that you can’t create systems that necessitate people to be at the end of the progression system for your character, before you can even begin to progress. Which is what ends up happening if one puts it at a +10.

For this we can look at the age old “given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.”

That article is from 2011, and WoW already had a version of this before that since Wrath of the Lich King called Vault of Archavon, where a common requirement for people who wanted to get gear to progress their character was to have a higher gearscore than from the gear that was available from VoA.
In Legion, we saw what Titanforging did when folks were mass spamming Maw of Souls where people ran it 100-200 times at a quite low level but insanely quickly, just to hope for a mega titanforged item. Due to the effectiveness of it, once you were done progressing your character and you had no other reliable way of doing it, players started doing it the unreliable way … which was spamming Maw of Souls, finishing it under 2 minutes, and hoping for titanforged items.

When the expected norm of the game to progress your character exists in the game in these states, players do it every single time. You make resilient keys appear at a +10, then that’s the only thing that exists - nothing else. Which brings one back to the point I was making of “Why a +12” and my answer is a very simple one that I don’t think you are getting; I’m not tying it to an achievement, because it doesn’t need to be. It is just an expectation of “Can you reliably and regularly time +10s and showcase that you can do it at a rate that proves you wouldn’t either have, create, or be in the problem group of players that ‘+10 norm’ would create? Then, eh, sure.”

At a +12 range, you are pushing keys. You don’t have to push to the highest possible extent, you just have to showcase that you aren’t in the group of people who would en masse ‘optimize the fun out of the game’ - because once you are past that point, resilient keys wouldn’t be the norm, but an actual genuine quality of life improvement.

You are tying it to achievements and rewards, when it isn’t. Resilient keys are a quality of life improvement for some, but for others it would be Gearscore from VoA and Maw of Souls spamming from Legion. The entire point, no matter how one chooses to describe it or provide whatever reasons, is to facilitate the QoL-aspects and avoid the “optimize away the fun”-aspect of said mechanic.

133

Okay, good idea… Ban players for leaving a group. That’ll make them stay.

More likely people will avoid grouping all together if that was the case.

134

And you are tying it to expectations and views, wiche it could be, but you are over thinking it, I covered a SIMPLE reason why 12s are the break point for resilient keys:

You yourself said systems had to be kept simple and easy to understand, what is easy to require for resilient keys:

  1. a level where the affixes can change week by week and one may be able to time with x affix but not y
    or
  2. a level which the affixes are the same week in and week out

Twelves fail at this point, as there are many that, once they hit 12s, would rather farm them repeatedly due to the factor there are no shifting affixes which means everything is easy to understand, no “ok, we need to destroy orbs this week” or “alright, we need to kill an add this time around” in essence, with all the changes made this season, some can argue 12s are the new 10s

If it helps, think of it like resilient keys at 12s will likely become the “norm” but resilient keys at 13 and up are where they become a QoL improvement as timing all keys at x level gives you resilient keys at that level, it is not a fail a 16 4 times, drops to a 12 if you have timed all at 15, it is a fail a 16, you can do that 15 as many times as it takes to get it back to a 16.

135

The requirement of “Time all keys at a +12” is an extremely simple requirement. For people where this would be a netpositive and QoL improvement instead of the optimizing fun away aspect, this is the earliest and easiest way to do this.

I don’t get what you are arguing about.

… you really don’t get what I’m talking about do you? My point is that 12s are achievable enough for players to get to 'em, but far away enough where only players who want to get to that point will get to that point, removing the norm-function from it.

Yes, it creates a new norm for some players. It doesn’t fundamentally make it so people who aren’t at that stage feel forced to be at that level as opposed to get to that level.

You don’t understand how progression works if you think this is a critique against it. Even at a casual level for Heroic raiders, eventually folks start running Heroic alt-runs and care less and less about ilvl requirements simply because players naturally get themselves to that point as a result of progressing to that point.

You don’t understand what I’m saying if you think this is a critique against it. The point is that you have to progress to that point. It still has to be reachable for players at a relatively normal level for those who want to get to that point.

Maybe this will help you understand what I am saying: Yes, players get better at the game over time - but one has to have people play the game to get to that point. You put the starting point at a +10, and folks won’t play it or, folks start creating systems such as Gearscore to get others to boost oneself to that point as opposed to progressing to that point.

But yes, players over time get better at the game when they play said game. This is not a negative thing.

136

In this case, you are still arguing th8ings that it would be net positive and optimizing fun away, ideas and such that the common player, who wants it to start at 10s, might not get. My argument is 12s are the lowest challenging key where the affixes are FIXED. People can understand fixed affixes with little explanation.

In essence you are a PHD trying to explain things to a 9th grader, and I am trying to be the college grad that is trying to get you to realize that you lose some people or sound like an elitist prick with your language. Not an argument as much as "hey, poindexter, dumb it down to terms everyone can understand…

To put it bluntly, all you or I ever had to say to answer “why does it not start at 10s” is “12s are where everything about M+ starts being consistent”,

As a side note though, related to optimizing fun away, for some of us the ones that do that are the ones that push the time or die narrative no matter what the key level is, it is no that we are against optimizing routes, as much as people thinking only one route is optimal, or that there should not be any mistakes when trying to find that route.

137

Personal insults always are an indicator of a well reasoned argument

The quoted text literally says you can think that if you want to. You are repeating what I said.

You are welcome to think that but there is a reason this gets shot down every single time its posted, twice a day, for years now.

I’m not sorry you don’t get to hold someone hostage in a key because you think its rude for them to leave. I am not sticking out a dead key or really for any reason I see fit.

You can go ahead and save this post and I will pay a months sub (with gold) for you if they ever implement an actual punishment for leaving a key outside of intentionally mass leaving keys.

138

Staying in terrible groups isn’t covered by basic human decency. You gotta earn my respect.

139

Covers both ways. You bail on people, you showing disrespect. Sure, maybe they deserve it. Maybe they were noobs and you are rightly dropping them like a hot potato. But don’t kid yourself. That is still disrespect.

140

I mean… if your key starts that bad, I can’t fault people for leaving. It’s pretty normal, especially when so many keys have massive key defining pulls off the start.

141

Nobody has ever been banned for leaving a key lmao. What drugs are on you?