10/19/2018 02:18 PMPosted by
Turgin
The problem with the writing is that to the developers the race of Night Elves is EVERY single NE. The rub is that to the Players, only the playable portion of the race of Night Elves and the associated individuals are NE's.
I think needs to be brought fully into the forefront of this effort: the Dev's don't have the same line of thinking apparently in regards to the playable races.
This is where I've historically disagreed with what I see as the majority of night elf players, personally.
When people would say that night elves don't get anything good and I'd point to zones like Hyjal or Azsuna or Val'sharah, we'd have a fundamental disagreement on what "night elves" meant: I'd mean the entire race, they'd mean the specific Darnassian Alliance night elves. Because I was on the former, I disagreed with the night elves always lose stance. And I still do as far as Cata questing is concerned.
However, in BfA it's really been a !@#$show for
every night elf. There's nothing you can look at and say "yeah the Alliance elves are having problems, but this faction here is doing awesome night elf stuff." It's
all bad.
Hey there.
As I promised before in response to Drahliana's post, I am here to draw comparisons between races' stories. And once again, bear in mind I am doing my best to be as empathetic with every fan as I possibly can. I've spoken with a lot of people about these feelings and they've shared theirs and all, so I like to think I'm capable of saying why the Night Elf story feels different, in a worse way, than others.
I believe it's better for my point, to keep is as short as humanly possible, and I think I will summarize it to three points which obviously give broad strokes of the whole situation. I hope you can understand being brief in mentioning them is necesary.
It's pervasive: Not a single time the Night Elves achieve something is by their own. Be it bringing back the Ancients, incarcerating Staghelm, or defending a World Stone, they start at ground minus. Compare and contrast with the Argent Crusade succesfully erecting large structures and assaults at the base of Icecrown Citadel itself: sure, with your help, but you don't raise stuff on your own. You see them building and working with you. Compare the achievements of the night elves in Ashenvale and Stonetalon (nothing) to The Horde's (further their advance).
Worse: take a few steps to the left, or do the quests horde side, and the Horde is just slaughtering countless amounts of Night Elf NPCs without you ever interacting with that area, despite being right next to it. Like all of Azshara, or the southern door to the barrens.
A great example of how achievement felt good in a questline is in Warlords of Draenor (Horde Side). The Frostwolf clan takes a brand new outpost, inhabits it, turns it into a quest hub, and actually show some sense of closure and security afforded by a combined action of yours, and the Frostwolf charge. The closest there is to that for Night Elves is the end of Hyjal, where Jarod summons a buttload of allies and you get a grand total of 1 quest dragon bombing the area a bit, and then it's over and nothing changes.
In other words, it always happens with the Night Elves. Sure, happens with other races, neutral and not, but for Night Elves, it's a given.
Nothing is achieved: For most other questlines and races, summoning imperious creatures of old is an end-all to their problems. The Class hall questlines for Paladins and Priests all gather an army to fight off an invader, and find a new ally. Sylvanas runs into trouble with the Worgen...and just bringing back an old ally solves her problems. Sure, He ends up betraying her, and shooting her, but this proves to be inconsequential, and she ends up having her revenge. The Orcs and Draenei rally with old friends and allies and learn more of them in WoD, and establish outposts, the Blood Elves prove themselves to the shattrath defenders, making up for their past mistakes.
Night Elves summon their big things and they are absolutely inconsequential. Bringing Malorne back sent back...a Vanilla era boss, and then he dissapears. Aviana and Tortolla are inconsequntial and never reappear. The Blessing of Elune's night Warrior affords them a standstill they don't hold, surrendering the lands of Aszhara for the goblins gives them no peace, and Malfurion and Tyrande themselves coming to Val'sharah ends up...with one of them being kidnapped.
The greatest heroes of the Alliance and the Niight Elves cannot take back any single outpost back in Ashenvale, or Stonetalon.
The loss is more significant: The Horde, especially, has not been without their losses. Most wounding is obviously, Cairne Bloodhoof's ignominious out-of game death. But here's the thing: their deaths and losses come accompanied with uplifting moments. The loss of Tirion Fordring is expanded upon later, his body a vessel of the Light even the Lich King himself is punished for choosing to corrupt. Sylvanas' failure to acquire Eyir is a badass moment for Genn, but she escapes unscathed, making Greymane go back to lick his wounds. The Siege of Orgrimmar has the loss of a handful of old NPCs some would remember, like Overlord Runthak, Nazgrim, and Neeru Fireblade. But this is accompanied by the appearances of Thrall, Eitrigg, Gamon, and Nazgrim's death being understandable and honorable (and pointless since he's back) .
The Night Elves just get crushed. Every single NPC in Teldrassil, Darkshore and Ashenvale you leveled up with is dead and you know of this in a story that goes into detail saying how the children died embracing their mothers. There was no last hurrah, no battlecry, no from hell's heart I stab at thee, neither before, nor after, nor now. The War of Thorns has more corpses than any other scenario before, and the advance is shown as inexorable, inevitable, and results in characters being turned into hopeless puppets that are held aloft to mock the Night Elves. Stonetalon and Ashenvale, prior to BfA, are also just pathetic losses where the best you can do for the questgivers is try, and then see no end result. Val'sharah's every sacred grove ends up with corpses piled upon corpses, where all the king's druids and all the king's nightsabers couldn't even offer token resistance.
This is why one of the most powerful, and immediate fan favorites in all of night elfhood is...Thisalee Crow. Of all the NPCs there are in Hyjal, she is the only one with an attitude and something under her belt. Anything. She's like Boba Fett in the sense she's liked not because her handful of lines were awesome but because in the hectic events that happened, she was the only one among a bunch of others who achieved something in a plain old no holds barred no ifs and buts victory that you didn't expect a druid would just achieve on their own.
Again.
I do not intend to say this doesn't happen for other races. It does. But when it comes to Night Elves, this isn't something that 'sometimes' happens. It's the rule.
I absolutely failed to keep it short, and I also suspect it's going to be the most convoluted, controversial, and disliked post of mine, considering it brings forth material people like to fight over. But understand I say it not in the context of saying "The stonetalon story was bad for night elves, hence, it was good for horde!". It coulda been hella better for both sides, but I am just focusing on why it feels so badly for one side, not trying to condemn anyone for enjoying/not enjoying the other side.
10/19/2018 03:25 PMPosted by
Reignac
I disagreed with the night elves always lose stance. And I still do as far as Cata questing is concerned.
However, in BfA it's really been a !@#$show for every night elf. There's nothing you can look at and say "yeah the Alliance elves are having problems, but this faction here is doing awesome night elf stuff." It's all bad.
For full disclosure, I also agree that Cataclysm questing, though starting off very depressing, is ultimately a great big "world" tour of Kalimdor, from Darkshore to Ashenvale to Stonetalon with a little detour to the Overgrowth Camp then through Desolace to Feralas through Thousand Needles and then back up to Felwood and Winterspring and then eventually, after a small trip to Vashj'ir, making it to Mount Hyjal and the Molten Front and Firelands story after as the best escalation of storylines ever.
It was just nonstop Night Elves taking Kalimdor back, recovering after such devastation and coming out stronger than ever, and definitely gave me more pride in our Night Elf people. And as such I will always defend Cataclysm questing.
And the War of the Thorns came and undid all that.
10/19/2018 03:34 PMPosted by
Ilthen
Every single NPC in Teldrassil
I bet Crildor is still level 55.
10/19/2018 03:34 PMPosted by
Ilthen
This is why one of the most powerful, and immediate fan favorites in all of night elfhood is...Thisalee Crow. Of all the NPCs there are in Hyjal, she is the only one with an attitude and something under her belt. Anything. She's like Boba Fett in the sense she's liked not because her handful of lines were awesome but because in the hectic events that happened, she was the only one among a bunch of others who achieved something in a plain old no holds barred no ifs and buts victory that you didn't expect a druid would just achieve on their own.
It is funny that I was ecstatic to see Thisalee Crow on our side during testing of the Alliance side version of the Darkshore Warfront. It was a considerable relief after they gave her the Horde's version of Stag Form when she was a Druid player's bodyguard in Legion.
Honestly, being a Night elf player usually makes you feel like Blizz is angry that you like that race.
"Hey, Night elf players, do you like Night elves? Well screw you, nobody in the world likes Night elves. Not even Night elves. We're going to have Night elves leave your faction and join the Horde, and they'll be better than you are.
F*** you.
-Sincerly, Blizzard."
Hey, Night elf players, do you like Night elves? Well screw you, nobody in the world likes Night elves. Not even Night elves.
This amusingly has been a big part of our narrative forever, and also not something new. Azshara and her Highborne tried to purge the rest of the "lowborn" Night Elves, and since then we've gotten a parade of mutated Night Elf traitors in the Satyr, Naga, Druids of the Flame, Nightborne, and now Forsaken Night Elves.
To the OP, I agree with everything but I'd add that while the downwards spiral of night elves was made apparent in Cata, I'd say it actually began in Vanilla.
Think about it. For all those who loved night elves at their introduction of WC3 (such as myself), we had a new foreign culture in the Warcraft-verse depicting an amazonian society hand-in-hand with a patriarchal druidism. Come WoW the assumed gender locks were broken down (which is a good thing imo) but what also came was the overarching presence of druidism completely overtaking Sentinel/Amazonian themes. There's not one zone in Night Elf questing that has night elf Sentinel/military themes outdo druidic ones from Vanilla unto the Cata revamp.
The balance of these two themes that once defined night elves was ruined from the start. And sad to say I recognized this during BC. Now could you have badass druids? Sure, but for the fans who desire more Elune priestess-warrior-type themes, this hasn't been prevalent for a good decade now and I don't see Blizzard changing course.
10/19/2018 06:26 PMPosted by
Vivette
patriarchal druidism.
Oh no, you've said the P word!
I agree though.
Playing a Night Elf character is like role-playing a domestic violence victim, with a bit of sexual assault to liven things up with some victim-blaming and humiliation.
Goodness, am I glad to see people still having this relatively alive to other threads. Thanks all for adding your voices, even tho sometimes, it's a bitter voice from hearts rendered cynical by a story like this. But it's kinda what I want to do. At this moment in time it feels like Devs blatantly ignore any thread with Nelf stuff on them in a dismissive "Ugh, those guys whining again? Just go to Moonglade or something! Gosh, let the story be!".
So I want to give rhyme and reason to the negative emotions people are so afraid of exposing, admitting, and dealing with. No creative likes to be told "Hey, your work made me sad and not in a way that thaught me anything it just felt like you are being a @*%@@%!% for no purpose", especially when the creative forces at Blizzard as super constrained by administrative higher ups that actually determine the story.
But it is by no means something they should ignore and I'd go as far as daring to say that not acknowledging it from their part seems just...arrogant. This thing isn't a new complaint, this thing has been going on for a while, and there's been no words and like I said, at this point promises sound more like threats. It's disheartening, but I think it has to be said.
The Kaldorei narrative is now one of horror, and maybe survival. There is no heroic fantasy in it any more.
WoW, however, is not a horror, survival game.
I think there are a few main reasons why the Night Elves keep drawing the short straw.
1) There are no big Night Elf fans in CDev
When Chris Metzen was on the writing team, Thrall and by extension the Orcs as a whole got a lot of love and attention; there's a damn expansion named after the Orcish clan leaders of AU Draenor, that should tell you everything. Metzen's enthusiasm for all things zug zug shone through. Steve Danuser, as the joke goes, is a Sylvanas stan who self-inserts through Nathanos. More seriously, he's a passionate Forsaken fan. TL;DR look at the Horde-side narrative in BfA.
Night Elves appear to have nobody of the sort in CDev - passionate, enthusiastic fans who want to see them do well. Since Blizzard's games run on a Rule of Cool, 'Chuck in whatever you'd like to see' philosophy, you have to create the content you want to see, or it's not going to happen. Without anybody really batting for the Night Elves in the creative department, you get the 'Horde boot stamping on a Nelf face, forever' situation we have at the moment.
2) Blizzard assume we're talking about all Night Elves - when we're talking about the ones the PC comes from
As a whole, Nelves were doing fine prior to the War of the Thorns. Even after, I'm not worried for the Night Elf population in Hyjal, Moonglade and Val'sharah. There's no dearth of good content involving politically neutral Nelfs. Ancient Night Elves, too, are not without good content, and you can't say fans of the Kaldorei Empire weren't spoilt for choice in Legion.
Blizzard's issue with Nelves seems to lie with the modern, Darnassian, Alliance-aligned faction the Night Elf PC comes from. These are the ones who've been hit with the Worf Bat since Cata, forced into loosing to enemies they should be able to win against to show said enemies' strength, cruelty and/or straight-up evil. These are the ones who are the perpetual victims, waiting on King Chin and now King Chin Jr. to come save them with their h u m a n p o t e n t i a l.
Blizzard does put out good Night Elf content... except for the faction our PC Nelves come from. In a heroic fantasy game that's meant to be about empowerment.
3) J.R.R. Tolkien's legacy
Blah blah blah, elves are fading away, blah blah blah, now begins the a g e o f m e n, ugh. It's a tired trope that somehow keeps getting repeated with no thought as to why. At least only Night Elves and High Elves are hit with this in Warcraft (Blood Elves, Nightborne and Void Elves, by contrast, aren't. My thoughts on this: See 1) ).
10/19/2018 03:25 PMPosted by
Reignac
10/19/2018 02:18 PMPosted by
Turgin
The problem with the writing is that to the developers the race of Night Elves is EVERY single NE. The rub is that to the Players, only the playable portion of the race of Night Elves and the associated individuals are NE's.
I think needs to be brought fully into the forefront of this effort: the Dev's don't have the same line of thinking apparently in regards to the playable races.
This is where I've historically disagreed with what I see as the majority of night elf players, personally.
When people would say that night elves don't get anything good and I'd point to zones like Hyjal or Azsuna or Val'sharah, we'd have a fundamental disagreement on what "night elves" meant: I'd mean the entire race, they'd mean the specific Darnassian Alliance night elves. Because I was on the former, I disagreed with the night elves always lose stance. And I still do as far as Cata questing is concerned.
However, in BfA it's really been a !@#$show for every night elf. There's nothing you can look at and say "yeah the Alliance elves are having problems, but this faction here is doing awesome night elf stuff." It's all bad.
Night elves are only allowed to win against pve threats.
Very well written post. I'm a new player myself and when I first started, I made a Night Elf Hunter and boosted her so that I could get into the content and start unlocking things en masse but what originally drew me to picking Night Elf was because I was enamored with their strong amazon like culture and their attachment to nature and spirituality. I just liked the way they looked too. Tall, purple skin, super long pointed ears that go downward instead of straight upward, I loved it. I like how tribal their asthetic was as well, most games pen elves to be this super sophisticated and ancient race of magically beautiful and powerful beings. It was a nice change.
But now after finishing legion, reading the novellas and such and starting on the end game for BfA, I have to agree that it certainly feels like the Night Elfs are around only to specifically be made out to be punching bags to further the plot and that feels like they are being devalued and disrespected. To think they would treat their own creation that way, it's almost like they get a sadistic pleasure out of writing Night Elfs being slaughtered and failing spectacularly in painstaking detail.
10/19/2018 04:34 PMPosted by
Amadis
10/19/2018 03:34 PMPosted by
Ilthen
This is why one of the most powerful, and immediate fan favorites in all of night elfhood is...Thisalee Crow. Of all the NPCs there are in Hyjal, she is the only one with an attitude and something under her belt. Anything. She's like Boba Fett in the sense she's liked not because her handful of lines were awesome but because in the hectic events that happened, she was the only one among a bunch of others who achieved something in a plain old no holds barred no ifs and buts victory that you didn't expect a druid would just achieve on their own.
It is funny that I was ecstatic to see Thisalee Crow on our side during testing of the Alliance side version of the Darkshore Warfront. It was a considerable relief after they gave her the Horde's version of Stag Form when she was a Druid player's bodyguard in Legion.
She's my favorite Legion companion. I don't quite understand part of your comment. Her stag form is the same as mine. I don't generally see it that often as she's usually either in night elf, panther, or stormcrow form. If I remember correctly in cataclysm she's an Order of the Talon druid.
10/20/2018 07:40 AMPosted by
Laralyn
She's my favorite Legion companion. I don't quite understand part of your comment. Her stag form is the same as mine. I don't generally see it that often as she's usually either in night elf, panther, or stormcrow form. If I remember correctly in cataclysm she's an Order of the Talon druid.
They mean when she's the companion of a Horde druid. She just mimics the stag form of whatever faction you are in. I have a Troll Druid alt and have her as a follower and whenever I shift into stag, she turns into a Horde stag.
10/20/2018 01:57 AMPosted by
Lunene
I think there are a few main reasons why the Night Elves keep drawing the short straw.
1) There are no big Night Elf fans in CDev
When Chris Metzen was on the writing team, Thrall and by extension the Orcs as a whole got a lot of love and attention
I would like to cite a correction here:
http://www.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/chris_metzen_micky_neilson_pocket_star_books_lore_qa_video_interview
Q: What can you tell us about the upcoming Worlf of Warcraft: Stormrage by Richard A. Knaak?
Micky Neilson: The book’s going to be fantastic, answers all kinds of questions, what’s been happening to Malfurion, what’s going on, who’s behind it… all those questions are going to be answered.
Chris Metzen: I would just say too, I mean Malfurion’s always been, personally, my favorite Warcraft hero. He’s my favorite to write, so I’ve waited a long time to get this guy back into the mix, and have him play a significant role in the shaping of Azeroth. He’s a mega player, and he’s been off the scene.
Micky Neilson: For a long time.
Chris Metzen: I’m really stoked on this book. We really designed the essential backbone of the book to be just hyper Druid overload. If you’re a WoW Druid, this book’s for you. It features all the major druid characters, and players. I love it. Love it, love it.
Now, people might have felt that Darnassian Night Elf culture shifted too much from Sentinels to Druids because of Metzen's excitement for Malfurion, though I do not think anyone can say Metzen did not have passion and enthusiasm for the Night Elves. Metzen always was pretty much enthusiasm incarnate.
10/20/2018 01:57 AMPosted by
Lunene
2) Blizzard assume we're talking about all Night Elves - when we're talking about the ones the PC comes from
As a whole, Nelves were doing fine prior to the War of the Thorns. Even after, I'm not worried for the Night Elf population in Hyjal, Moonglade and Val'sharah. There's no dearth of good content involving politically neutral Nelfs. Ancient Night Elves, too, are not without good content, and you can't say fans of the Kaldorei Empire weren't spoilt for choice in Legion.
Blizzard's issue with Nelves seems to lie with the modern, Darnassian, Alliance-aligned faction the Night Elf PC comes from. These are the ones who've been hit with the Worf Bat since Cata, forced into loosing to enemies they should be able to win against to show said enemies' strength, cruelty and/or straight-up evil.
I think this is a fair point, though. Because of this, though, I think Malfurion standing up for the Alliance Night Elves and finally standing against the Horde is important. I think the current Blizzard writers probably see that as a big win - especially after years of people saying they should kill Malfurion off. Now, if they could actually make something of uniting all the neutral Night Elf groups with the Alliance Night Elves, that would make a lot more progress, and we are getting tastes of that in the Darkshore Warfront, with formerly neutral Night Elves and allies being on the Alliance side, such as Maiev, Thisalee Crow, Jarod Shadowsong, and Celestine of the Harvest (though Celestine does live in Stormwind, we've only seen her out in the world in neutral Druid settings).
However, unfortunately Darkshore Warfront will also undermine that if it leads to a dead end where the Night Elves make no progress.
10/20/2018 01:57 AMPosted by
Lunene
I think there are a few main reasons why the Night Elves keep drawing the short straw.
1) There are no big Night Elf fans in CDev
It's funny, because I joked with a friend the other day that I wish Blizzard would hire me to write the Night Elven story, because at this point I trust
literally nobody else to be able to do it right.
Like, my god... I'd even do it for free. Just. Let. Me. Fix. It.
10/20/2018 01:57 AMPosted by
Lunene
I think there are a few main reasons why the Night Elves keep drawing the short straw.
1) There are no big Night Elf fans in CDev
It's funny, because I joked with a friend the other day that I wish Blizzard would hire me to write the Night Elven story, because at this point I trust literally nobody else to be able to do it right.
Like, my god... I'd even do it for free. Just. Let. Me. Fix. It.
Eh.... over in the General Forums thread Ilthen put himself in your shoes, and not really sure anyone expects it to go quite right.
10/19/2018 09:05 PMPosted by
Ilthen
You know, personally i'm not sure how or what to add to the story in order to make it better. Ideas, I've a lot, sure. No nerd is without their fantasies, but I'd loathe to just impose mine. Because, again, in an exercise to gather empathy for my point of view, it'd feel to me as a glaring mistake to burst in demanding ideas like "AND THEN TYRANDE SHOOTS SYLVANAS IN BETWEEN THE EYES AND THREATHENS ORGRIMMAR WITH DISMANTLING".
Personally I think it'd take a lot of more knowledge of what's going on before I felt comfortable bringing 'concrete' story ideas to fruition.