10/18/2018 10:07 PMPosted by
Amadis
All of Tyrande's and the Night Elves' presence in Legion and their history with it punctuated with the idea of seeing them at the Legion's final defeat --> Not even a token Night Elf on Argus.
Did you forget that big guy with the burning eyes and the wings? He's pretty much the star figure of the ending cinematic. He also dominates a lot of the cut scenes involving the Legion storyline and everyone who did their class order progression went through a fairly lenghty quest chain. He also served as one of the leading quest givers through the Legionfall and Argus campaigns.
Most of the night elf legion lore pretty much centered on Illidan and Malfurion, and both made major appearances this expansion.
Did you forget that big guy with the burning eyes and the wings? He's pretty much the star figure of the ending cinematic. He also dominates a lot of the cut scenes involving the Legion storyline and everyone who did their class order progression went through a fairly lenghty quest chain. He also served as one of the leading quest givers through the Legionfall and Argus campaigns.
Most of the night elf legion lore pretty much centered on Illidan and Malfurion, and both made major appearances this expansion.
Perhaps I'm just cynical or even being unnecessarily selective but calling Illidan a night elf character is like calling Nathanos a human character. Maybe exaggerating a little there but he has never had any interest in the night elves and their goals and ideals, which is probably why the writers have seen fit to give him the one mark of a non-night elf character: the ability to actually succeed in his endeavors.
The rest of the night elves however are forced to remain stagnant and unsuccessful. Forever. As usual.
10/18/2018 05:02 PMPosted by
Ridget
I don't mean to derail, but could you elaborate how you identify with Night Elves?
Semi-serious answer, for me, personally: I work a third shift job. And I don't follow an organized religion, irl, but what I do believe is mostly a mix of Deism and some Nature reverence.
So yeah. The race of nocturnal Nature worshippers caught my eye.
10/19/2018 12:03 PMPosted by
Ilthen
So yes, the comparisons can be drawn, and even must. But I do not think the comparisons invalidate the feel of night elves' appearances in the stories.
I agree. That Ilthen's thread is about Night Elves does not invalidate oter fans' issues, and those fans' issues do not invalidate Ilthen's point.
10/18/2018 10:07 PMPosted by
Amadis
All of Tyrande's and the Night Elves' presence in Legion and their history with it punctuated with the idea of seeing them at the Legion's final defeat --> Not even a token Night Elf on Argus.
Did you forget that big guy with the burning eyes and the wings?
I actually did, sadly enough. In what way did Illidan advance Night Elf lore? He never came back to talk to the other Night Elves. He never even talked to Malfurion or Tyrande in person despite their having been around at the start of the story and - as was my point - not on Argus or even the Tomb of Sargeras. Illidan never even came back to talk to the Illidari and the Demon Hunter player personally. His end cinematic of staying to taken on Sargeras just served to remove him from the story in preparation for BfA so that Blizzard wouldn't have to explore how Illidan would react to the Horde attacking the rest of the Night Elves again and burning down their capital.
I have to agree. Illidan was obviously a Night Elf but he was overwhelmingly more Illidan, just as Arthus is the Lich King before he’s a human.
Similarly, Illidan isn’t involved in any Night Elf story threads beyond the end of Legion when he says goodbye (via proxy) to Tyrande and Mal.
To the original point of this topic: the Warcraft story is the story of Humans (and Orcs as a result of being their main antagonist) and all others are just secondary and tertiary filler to prop up that narrative.
The Night Elf story feels so derelict because they’re supposed to be a super power with the best everything and we never see anything from them other than being eternally on their back foot (or face down) and a Druid or two telling the player character to plant some seeds and kill some cubs.
Pushing back Xavius and the Nightmare? Corrupted and dead Ysera.
Freeing Suramar from addiction and death? Horde Nightborne.
Moving to heal Azeroth and save everyone by doing so? Burned tree, dead and then corrupted Horde Night Elves.
It’s just so unsatisfactory (and stupid) to keep playing the inept bumbling novice while the big bad Alliance wrecks everyone’s !@#$ (even their own) in our memory.
10/19/2018 01:34 PMPosted by
Amadis
10/19/2018 12:03 PMPosted by
Ilthen
So yes, the comparisons can be drawn, and even must. But I do not think the comparisons invalidate the feel of night elves' appearances in the stories.
I agree. That Ilthen's thread is about Night Elves does not invalidate oter fans' issues, and those fans' issues do not invalidate Ilthen's point.
...
Did you forget that big guy with the burning eyes and the wings?
I actually did, sadly enough. In what way did Illidan advance Night Elf lore? He never came back to talk to the other Night Elves. He never even talked to Malfurion or Tyrande in person despite their having been around at the start of the story and - as was my point - not on Argus or even the Tomb of Sargeras. Illidan never even came back to talk to the Illidari and the Demon Hunter player personally. His end cinematic of staying to taken on Sargeras just served to remove him from the story in preparation for BfA so that Blizzard wouldn't have to explore how Illidan would react to the Horde attacking the rest of the Night Elves again and burning down their capital.
He advances Night Elf lore because He himself is a large part of it dating all the way back from the War of the Ancients. I disagree totally on your take of the ending cinematic. Illidan facing Sargeras again is a case of the story going full circle. Illidan's destiny was first sealed when he submitted to Sargeras and the latter burned out his eyes. He's now facing him once gain, but this time as a hunter chasing his greatest prey. That's a far better coda than him being drawn into the Horde/Alliance political wargame.
10/19/2018 01:34 PMPosted by
Amadis
In what way did Illidan advance Night Elf lore? He never came back to talk to the other Night Elves. He never even talked to Malfurion or Tyrande in person despite their having been around at the start of the story and - as was my point - not on Argus or even the Tomb of Sargeras. Illidan never even came back to talk to the Illidari and the Demon Hunter player personally. His end cinematic of staying to taken on Sargeras just served to remove him from the story in preparation for BfA so that Blizzard wouldn't have to explore how Illidan would react to the Horde attacking the rest of the Night Elves again and burning down their capital.
He advances Night Elf lore because He himself is a large part of it dating all the way back from the War of the Ancients.
You just reemphasize my point of the writers starting stories with Night Elves that don't end up leading to anything for them. I should indeed add Illidan as a bullet point to the list I posted.
10/19/2018 02:09 PMPosted by
Rhuna
The Night Elf story feels so derelict because they’re supposed to be a super power with the best everything and we never see anything from them other than being eternally on their back foot (or face down) and a Druid or two telling the player character to plant some seeds and kill some cubs.
Best everything? It's an acknowledged part of lore that Malfurion sacrificed the bulk of Night Elf power along with their longevity when he detonated Nordrassil to stop Archimonde. With the additional loss of Cenarius, the Night Elves were no longer the super power they were before the landing of the Horde and Alliance on Kalimdor. They were no longer in a position where they could hold off the Horde (or Alliance) by themselves.
Yet despite that, they made a darn good showing during the Wall of Thorns, holding off the bulk of the Horde's available army despite having the greater part of their own force diverted to Silithus along with the rest of the Alliance. The Fall of Teldrassil ranks right up there with that of the Alamo in the annals of great lost causes.
The problem with the writing is that to the developers the race of Night Elves is EVERY single NE. The rub is that to the Players, only the playable portion of the race of Night Elves and the associated individuals are NE's.
I think needs to be brought fully into the forefront of this effort: the Dev's don't have the same line of thinking apparently in regards to the playable races.
10/19/2018 12:15 PMPosted by
Zaluzan
I think a great issue with the story is that they wrote Night Elves as too powerful and now they are trying to take everything from them so they don't need to explain anymore why they don't just get rid of every problem ever on their own.
They did a fine enough job of doing that post-WC3. Nordrassil was kaput, so no more special dragon blessings to keep them as full of vigor as they used to be. The war with the Legion and Scourge had greatly reduced their "heavy hitters" (i.e. stone giants, chimaeras, ancients), and the druids were heavily wrapped up in this Emerald Nightmare thing that was beginning to pop up.
They didn't need to keep taking and taking and taking and taking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcZzlPGnKdU
Relevant.
@Drahliana
A defeat is still a defeat. The Night Elves were outnumbered 8 to 1(?) according to Elegy.
What you’re suggesting is the same thing Saurfang thinks when a Night Elf spits at him just before the orc removes his head: we should be proud of this gross failure?
At least we have them a hell of a fight while they were stomping all over us.
I understand the need for the Night Elves to lose and that they’re not their former selves, but the current iteration seem to have swung to far the other direction.
The Fall of Teldrassil ranks right up there with that of the Alamo in the annals of great lost causes.
The Alamo? The Alamo lead to the U.S. defeating Mexico in a war that pushed all the way into Mexico's capital and then getting California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico on top of Texas from Mexico in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
Night Elves likely won't even get Darkshore back after the burning of Teldrassil.
10/19/2018 02:37 PMPosted by
Amadis
The Fall of Teldrassil ranks right up there with that of the Alamo in the annals of great lost causes.
The Alamo? The Alamo lead to the U.S. defeating Mexico in a war that pushed all the way into Mexico's capital and then getting California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico on top of Texas from Mexico in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
Night Elves likely won't even get Darkshore back after the burning of Teldrassil.
Umm...no that is not how the history there played out. The Alamo was one battle during the Texas War of Independence that culminated in the Battle of San Jacinto. The victory over Santa Ana created the independent country known as the Republic of Texas. However due to debt and a bad economic situation as well as a strong desire among certain elements within the Republic, they negotiated an Annexation of the territory by the United States.
The Mexican-American war came about as a dispute nearly a decade after the war for independence about the dividing line between the Tejas and Mexico post independence.
Edit: I understand where you were trying to go with it, but the Alamo was a catagorical defeat, and honestly was post-lionized. Texas won its independence due to Santa Ana’s incompetence where the tejanos were able to ambush and capture his entire army in detail
10/19/2018 02:43 PMPosted by
Saiphas
10/19/2018 02:37 PMPosted by
Amadis
...
The Alamo? The Alamo lead to the U.S. defeating Mexico in a war that pushed all the way into Mexico's capital and then getting California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico on top of Texas from Mexico in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
Night Elves likely won't even get Darkshore back after the burning of Teldrassil.
I understand where you were trying to go with it, but the Alamo was a catagorical defeat, and honestly was post-lionized. Texas won its independence due to Santa Ana’s incompetence where the tejanos were able to ambush and capture his entire army in detail
The Alamo and the loss of the Mexican-American war were all the same actor: Antonio López de Santa Anna. It was all links in a single chain of events.
I parallel that to the War of the Thorns and the Darkshore Warfront, where the burning of Teldrassil was also a categorical defeat, but without the historic success to follow it.
10/19/2018 02:43 PMPosted by
Saiphas
...
I understand where you were trying to go with it, but the Alamo was a catagorical defeat, and honestly was post-lionized. Texas won its independence due to Santa Ana’s incompetence where the tejanos were able to ambush and capture his entire army in detail
The Alamo and the loss of the Mexican-American war were all the same actor: Antonio López de Santa Anna. It was all link in a single chain of events.
I parallel that to the War of the Thorns and the Darkshore Warfront, where the burning of Teldrassil was also a categorical defeat, but without the historic success to follow it.
Santa Ana however was not continuously in power, he infact was removed by internal revolution in Mexico after the war, to the point where he was EXILED. He was RETURNED to power after the Mexican American War was already underway at the behest of the Mexican government.
Yes, and the Mexican-American war happened because Mexico did not accept Texas' independence, directly linking the Alamo to the results of the war.
Once again, Darkshore Warfront is a new chapter after the conclusion of the War of the Thorns, as the Mexican-Amercian war was a new chapter after the Alamo, but respectively all part of their own same chain of events.
10/19/2018 03:01 PMPosted by
Amadis
Yes, and the Mexican-American war happened because Mexico did not accept Texas' independence, directly linking the Alamo to the results of the war.
Once again, Darkshore Warfront is a new chapter after the conclusion of the War of the Thorns, as the Mexican-Amercian war was a new chapter after the Alamo, but respectively all part of their own same chain of events.
They did accept the independence, they disputed where the line of demarcation was, which is a different matter entirely. Look i understand where you are trying to go with it, but I feel there are better historical analogies than that one.
I think you're nitpicking for the sake of historical details, and I stand by my point that one event directly lead to another, and parallels here, especially as WoW cuts out years of political maneuvering for gameplay.
10/19/2018 03:11 PMPosted by
Amadis
I think you're nitpicking for the sake of historical details, and I stand by my point that one event directly lead to another, and parallels here, especially as WoW cuts out years of political maneuvering for gameplay.
No, I disagree that those linkages are there as you state. I fundamentally disagree with how you frame the events. But let’s just agree to disagree?
10/19/2018 03:14 PMPosted by
Saiphas
let’s just agree to disagree?
If only because I'm not sure how many more ways I can figure out how to add "War of the Thorns" and "Darkshore Warfront" to the end of my posts to stay on topic.