To subvert or not to subvert

[Karestae-moon-guard]

@Pellex-hyjal

It was orderly, but I don’t recall it being Order in the past, with a capital O. However, I may be misremembering. And I definitely agree that arcane being attached to Order is a weird mismatch with its original presentation.

Wasn’t arcane originally WoWs version of Wild Magic and extremely addicting? I could have sworn it was something like that

[Doness-kargath (Doness)]

@Markulo-sargeras

An answer of “society evolves” at least has the blunt logic of the majority does what it wants regardless what is right. That holds some consistency in my mind.

That sounds like it could lead to misanthropy.

@Markulo-sargeras

but then what of perceived harm (i.e., it hasn’t happened yet or at all), abstract harm, economic harm, emotional harm, etc

Would the average person say those are bad things that should be avoided if possible?

@Markulo-sargeras

Further, at the risk of really going off-topic, is all harm bad?

To me, unless it leads to greater good than harm.

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

@Karestae-moon-guard

Wasn’t arcane originally WoWs version of Wild Magic and extremely addicting?

Definitely addictive, and also, using it would attract the attention of demons. Why would demons care about someone using the power of Order under the current cosmology?

@Merìngue-whisperwind

But, the reality is that people are not all good or all evil. Good people sometimes do bad things for bad reasons. And even terrible people will have some good. People are grey.

I agree with this, but ironically, I feel like Blizzard is writing their characters as less grey even while they strive to make the cosmic universe entirely grey.

@Markulo-sargeras

The light can be good, the orcs can be a bloodthirsty warrior society, and the Night Elves can be a strictly regimented society of isolationist amazon women.

Yeah, you can build a fictional society however you want, with whatever sort of morality you want. Everyone knows it’s fictional. The point is just to set the rules of your world and see how it plays out from there. The annoying thing (to me) that Blizzard is doing is that they’re trying to shift the rules of an already established world.

@Zilidar-emerald-dream

I feel like this really began with the Bioware games, in particular SWTOR

I think KOTOR 2 started it, with Kreia. I didn’t really see that issue in KOTOR 1.

[Zilidar-emerald-dream]

Kreia was a great idea when it was a single perspective in the vast Star Wars universe.

And, of course, they had to run the concept into the ground.

[Zilidar-emerald-dream]

Yes. It was one of my favorite aspects of Warcraft lore and a core aspect of the setting that tied into…pretty much everything in the universe.

Arcane was pretty much exactly Wild Magic from DND, merged with psychic powers in Warhammer 40k (The Nether = A slightly less insane version of the Warp)

Arcane and Fel are two sides of the same type of magic. This remained the case until around Legion when Chronicles came out and…beyond all logic and belief, claimed that arcane was a force of “Order”.

[Doness-kargath (Doness)]

Personally, i hate referring to the arcane as “Order Magic” now. It also doesn’t really jive with the War of the Ancients unless they were also using Fel Magic.

[Merìngue-whisperwind (Merìngue)]

@Pellex-hyjal

I agree with this, but ironically, I feel like Blizzard is writing their characters as less grey

I think they generally go okay (some forgiveness for medium) with generally good characters having some grey. Where they fall down is the bad characters they are trying to have be a little good.

Those usually end up either

1. Going full mustache twirling villain (Example: Garrosh)
2. Bad, doing bad things then suddenly pull the ‘I am good now’ heal turn. (Example: Grommash)

[Danseis-silver-hand (Danseis)]

Being a Star Wars fan, I cringe and shudder whenever someone says, ‘subvert expectations’. With Warcraft, at this point in WoW’s story telling it might subvert expectations to make the Titan’s and the Light “good guys” rather than primordial powers that have motivations or goals that often but not always align with those of the people of Azeroth. I do think that having a cosmic force or power in Warcraft that is not outright hostile to everyone would be a refreshing change of pace.

All of that being said. One thing that I agree with WoW’s writing team about is to portray people as being more complex than just monster of the week or always right and good about everything. In a story with a world as its setting it makes perfect sense that not every Forsaken is someone who eats puppies for breakfast and that not every Paladin is a shining beacon who is so pure that the universe bends to their will. Having those shades of grey allow players to develop their own stories within the larger world and help WoW to remain not only an MMO but an RPG as well.

[Zilidar-emerald-dream]

Exactly. It makes no sense and directly contradicts countless things big and small in the lore.

Almost like you should never turn your semi-soft magic system into a hard one (I hate all these stupid “forces” that define everything) decades after the fact.

I mean, I’ll always bring up the arcane boss “Anomalous” from the Malygos dungeon in WoTLK. That whole dungeon is what Arcane magic was originally about, and it was sick.

But yeah, Anomalous: the guy literally made of arcane magic, emerging from a rift to the nether that destabilizes everything around it, and shouts, “CHAOS”.

Yeah. That guy was a manifestation of order. Sure.

Jesus Chris.

[Kaileath-wyrmrest-accord]

That is more fundamentally arcane was still Legally Distinct Warhammer winds of magic back then. Arcane, Fel, and Void had not even truly come apart then. Chronicles really kicked that into motion.

[Zilidar-emerald-dream]

It wasn’t like the winds of magic. It was much closer to 40K’s version of magic/psychic powers. Tbf, I know less about Warhammer Fantasy than 40k, but I don’t remember anything resembling the winds of magic in arcane.

Also, it wasn’t just “legally distinct” anything. It took large inspiration from warhammer’s magic, but Warcraft added the twist that magic was also an addictive drug that gives you a euphoric high with every spell you cast.

Like everything in Warcraft, it’s inspired by popular fantasy but had its own twist.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

@Danseis-silver-hand

Having those shades of grey allow players to develop their own stories within the larger world and help WoW to remain not only an MMO but an RPG as well.

Indeed.

I was a fan of the RTS. The MMO is an extension of that. Where I used to have hero units and a bunch of other units - my Character can be the Hero Unit or a common grunt/footie who ventured farther than he ever thought.

I don’t like the adherence to “moral purity” or what ever people want to call it. It just makes sense that there will be disagreement on what is right.

Even in a fantastical fictional setting, I find it hard to believe that every member of a certain race thinks the same thing about everything. Or every member of a Faction.

For every Aethas who is out there looking for presents for Jaina, there is a Hathorel who is still mad about the Purge.

For every Baine saying the Burning of Taurajo was legitimate, there is a Profession Trainer who thinks the Burning of Teldrassil was just a taste of the justice the Alliance deserved for their crimes.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Karestae-moon-guard

Wasn’t arcane originally WoWs version of Wild Magic and extremely addicting? I could have sworn it was something like that

It was originally the gateway to the Fel.

[Nightsong-mannoroth]

@Mithonic-wyrmrest-accord

it seems like for the most part they are morally good.

Three day old post… but looks like the mainland Arathi are racist and very isolationist (so at least for now they won’t be marching out to purge the world of the other races)…

Basically, WH40k Imperium of Man… the faction we meet is desperate and thus working with our characters and the rest of the factions because they don’t believe they’d survive otherwise. Kind of like some Inquisitors or Rogue Traders…

The dungeon group were actually hardliners who sound like they represent the true ideals of the Arathi Empire. Kind of like most Inquisitors and Space Marines…

At least that’s how it looks in the current build of the quests. I’m still slogging through, going full editor mode. Mostly just ripping into the writing and constantly hammering home that I want Blood Elf Shamans and that locking steady flight was the weak move of a petty dictator… but that’s just me.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Merìngue-whisperwind

Some of the issues. Not all of them.

A lot of the time it is just a fixation on one aspect at the detriment of others. That makes simultaneous stories weird. I think a lot of that stems from still approaching story boarding/writing like was done for the RTS which were consecutive episodes, not events at the same time. So, they story board out one story and then when they need to write the other things they have to try and fit them in around what they were telling.

Some of it is their biases. Some of it is just rule of cool getting in the way. Etc, etc.

And some of it is just the nature of an MMO limiting the way a story can be told.

Point is, it is more complicated than just saying ‘Blizzard is bad at X.’ They have a number of problems that cause some stories to fail. Overall, most of it is generally good. But they have fails. There are certainly bad stories. But the causes vary from one bad story to another.

It is worth having discussions about specific failures and the causes. But you need to be careful not to lump all failures under a single umbrella.

Thanks for the head’s up. I’ll keep the factors in mind. I’ll do a thread on this “have their cake and eat it too” storytelling another time.

@Merìngue-whisperwind

Good and evil certainly exist. And there are certainly situations where there are clear lines. But, the reality is that people are not all good or all evil. Good people sometimes do bad things for bad reasons. And even terrible people will have some good. People are grey. And some choices don’t have an obvious clear good/bad answer. And people, being grey, will sometimes disagree on what is the right answer. So, the world we live in is grey.

And our fiction is typically a reflection of our reality. So, we should expect that fiction would tell stories of people and things that are some level of grey. So, in our stories, good groups (like the light) will have some that do bad. And even among the shadow (bad group) you find some who do good. Stories are grey.

My argument would be: Yes right and wrong exist. But nobody in our lives is all one of the other. So, why should the people and groups in our stories be all one or the other?

While I see where you’re coming from about people, some beings are beyond human/mortal, so it makes sense that at least some of them would be all one or the other.

There’s also the fact that sometimes things which are actually black or white get wrongly labeled as grey due to the agenda of whoever calls them that. They don’t want to face the fact that they’re supporting something that’s wrong or not supporting something that’s right - so to hide the truth they lie and call it grey.

That said, you have a point.

@Merìngue-whisperwind

Best guess is the Naaru are the light’s answer to Old Gods. But even that is not clear. Logically at the top estimate of power that would put her around an Old God, who were no match for the Titans. Or around the power of Nature’s guardians, the Wild Gods. So, all together quite a bit less powerful than Titans.

And to top it off, it was pretty clear she was not at her full power. She had just been basically ‘put back together.’

And Illidan (who was a raid boss as well) was not exactly a slouch when it came to power.

So, the cinematic showed her in a weakened state restraining one of the most powerful characters we have dealt with. If anything is portrayed her as a very powerful character, even though she ultimately lost.

A sound theory, it is only a fan theory; fans doing the writers’ job for them. While Illidan is no slouch, a random pit lord knocked him out with one hit, and he’s supposed to be a demon-killing specialist. Naaru aren’t demons, but he can one-shot the most powerful one encountered? Those eye-beams that one-shot her only scratched that Pit Lord. I call bull on that.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

Black and white are just two shades of grey.

You have it backwards, grey is just a mix of black and white. There’s a huge gulf between nuance and making everything a pretentious grey moral slop.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

Nope… she was just supposed to be part of the narrative of bringing back Bat Boy. Once that happened, her purpose was done.

If that were true, there’d be no need for the Army of the Light, Argus’ world-soul, Turalyon and Alleria…

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

All things exist relative to each other. I’m very sure that George Washington wasn’t seen as a hero to honor during King George the Third’s time. That attitude changed when however the U.S. and U.K. became strong allies. All those things you listed are relative. Most poor Americans are well off compared to the average income North Korean. Stalin was our “ally”, but he killed far more of his own people than Hitler. And we killed more civillians in Firestorming Tokyo than Hiroshima and Nagasaki put together, and that after we used Dresden’s civillians in perfecting our fire bombing techniques… specifically designed to kill civillians in mass numbers that would put Israel’s present genocide campaign to shame.

Good and Evil are artificial constructs… subject to the politics of the day.

We get it, you have a rabid hatred the USA, try to stay on topic please. Good and evil transcended politics.

[Doness-kargath (Doness)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

We get it, you have a rabid hatred the USA

What? I wish. I didn’t get that from her post at all. It doesn’t make sense to dismiss good and evil simply because an evil country exists.

[Giru-khazgoroth (Giru)]

RABID HATRED lmao

[Giru-khazgoroth (Giru)]

You bring up actual things the US does and US citizens can’t handle it, it must be hatred

[Mithonic-wyrmrest-accord]

You have beta? Sweet.

Ah so they are Scarlet Crusade 2.0 it sounds like.

[Mithonic-wyrmrest-accord]

@Giru-khazgoroth

RABID HATRED lmao

A rabid once got into my garden and ate all my stawberries. I’ve been a rabid hater ever since.