Gotcha, so no actual increase in chance of a WF/TF. Just more rolls required to get to the cap. Yup, makes sense.
I am not sure it isn’t the other but I can’t prove it - the other there was on that chart on wowhead which I am sure was widely viewed. The first may have been in a Q and A in legion and never actually became reality.
I always though it was the latter. Base TF is +15, then an additional roll for each +5 beyond that. So as you said, it’s much less likely to get a 385 -> 425, than a 400 -> 425. I’m fairly certain that the chance of a TF itself isn’t affected by the content difficulty run. Would be nice if they just showed us exactly what the numbers behind the scenes were. Instead of relying on vague language like “bad luck protection.”
This is just a sad attemt at whining. For those that raid and do mythic+ do you have any idea how long it takes to even get somewhat decently geared playing casual?
Not all emissary quests give loot or are 400 item level. Maybe a couple to a few times a week. WQs are 370+ maybe, and are often repeat gear with an extremely rare chance to go up. Warfront is a fairly rare event and only one gives 400 item level loot.
A raider/myhric+ runner can be in 415+ in no time. Those that put in that type of effort are rewarded. Will always out gear a pure casual. Yes, the gear gap is not as big as it used to be, so what? Be happy with what you have achieved. The gear a casual player gets does not effect you in any way.
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The difference between those two really ends up being the same. It is harder to get a piece of gear that matters from world content than from doing high end content.
Who really cares if a piece of world quest gear titanforges to 370 - it is the ones that hit 425 that get people in a knot.
You view raiders as a monolith of Mythic raiders and high level M+ players. These systems (trivial content rewarding heroic level gear) minimally affect me on my “ivory tower.” TF affects everyone regardless of your position. Who they do affect are all the people who enjoy raiding at a lower difficulty setting. It also affects anyone interested in joining the M+ scene.
When trivial content levels you straight out of normal mode (and puts you at requiring +9’s and above to continue your characters progress)… That means, according to your gear, what you’re “ready for” is a +10 or a heroic raid… From an experience point of view, you’re no where close to ready for either. It’s one of the reasons sites like raider.io exist.
You over-rewarding the bottom level of difficulty, just contracts the meaningful content available to the middle difficulties.
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Similar agreed, but not quite the same. Also for me, it’s not the 425 god-forges that really matter. Those are in fact quite rare. I think it’s sorta stupid that they occur as they add literally nothing to gameplay, but I don’t think they’re the problem. The problems I see (drawing from my Legion experience when I wasn’t a mythic raider), was when I finished normal only to realize that I only had a few upgrades if any from heroic. TF isn’t the sole problem here, but it contributed to that feeling of the next tier of difficulty seeming pointless for progression.
I don’t like going into the next difficulty with the knowledge that I am not only looking for at most 1-2 upgrades, but that most of the gear would have to roll better versions of itself to be an upgrade. I find that frustrating.
As a mythic raider now, most of this doesn’t affect me. I raid at a high enough level, with high enough speed that I usually get upgrades from mythic. But for those that aren’t as quick or dedicated… I see their efforts getting eroded by simply time and luck. I remember it happening to me back in Legion.
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Normal and heroic raids are part of casual play now. Well semi casual. When the mythic system was put in normal and heroic were dumbed down. It makes sense to have all forms of casual play give similar loot.
Semi casual raiders will still be gearing far faster then WQs and emissary quests. And for those progressing in normal/ heroic raids those WQs and emissaries help speed that up.
The advantage still goes to raiders/mythic+
Oh and with the addition of warmode, keeping more players on a more level playing field keeps people leaving warmode on. If the gear gap was dramatic from casual, to semi casual, to hardcore, many would never get into world pvp.
^This is the best single argument presented in this thread.
I am certainly not “ready” for any content beyond what I already do and enjoy not matter what my ilvl says. I would postulate that the majority of players who don’t do harder content avoid it precisely because they feel unprepared for the difficulty level regardless of what gear they have.
Blizz gives out “welfare” epics to try to encourage players to do harder content, but it’s simply not going to work in most cases. The times it does “work” actually backfire because the player in the high enough gear doesn’t really have the skill to do the content. But, really, how is this any different from someone who buys carries to gear up?
Could it be the real concern by some players here is that they can’t sell as many carries when players can get good gear on their own through content they can do themselves?
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The odds of getting a 425 item from a WQ are quite literally next to zero.
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The reward system makes WQ, LFR, Norm, and Heroic equal in terms of reward, while they are no where close in terms of effort. If your only separation is speed, then you still end up with players efforts being devalued via time and luck. It’s one thing to reset the player base with a new tier/patch. It’s quite another to utilize systems that reset them within the same tier.
Many players, not all, enjoy feeling like they’re obtaining rewards for the efforts they put in. With the current system, their efforts are for naught. Everyone reaches nearly the same end-point regardless. You and others may scoff at how those players feel, but I find that sort of hypocritical. You’re telling them their petty for wanting to feel like they earned something (gear) for their time… while simultaneously demanding that you earn something (gear) for yours? Otherwise you then have no meaningful content?
Sorry, but I’m firmly on the side of… you put forth effort to yield rewards. I don’t think simply separating the speed of acquisition is enough to make people interested. And this is coming from someone who doesn’t require rewards to push into challenging content (hence why I’m still a mythic raider).
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Titanforging doesn’t benefit casuals either. Titanforging benefits nobody aside from those who get “lucky”.
Casuals benefit the least from TF actually. It creates a wider gap in ilvl and makes it a bit harder to join groups. For example, you could be trying to join groups that are around your level skillwise but there ilvl is higher than yours even though they’ve done the same content you have.
TF also creates an even wider gap from the bottom to the top. If someone gets lucky and the game is now telling them they’re ready for a m+10 so they decide they wanna try it it’s going to be an absolute nightmare because the game did nothing to prepare them for the difficulty that comes with that.
TF is extremely toxic for the game overall. It benefits those who get lucky but that should never be the case for gearing in an MMORPG.
Why do you think these threads keep popping up? Why do you think people look back so fondly on BIS lists? Why do you think people have gone crazy begging for deterministic systems back?
I don’t know anyone who wants to log into an MMORPG and think “i wonder how lucky/unlucky I’ll get today” as opposed to “if I do x/y/z I’ll finally have enough currency to upgrade/buy this piece of gear!”
It’s fine if casuals/anyone can get decent gear as long as the road to getting that decent gear is impactful, meaningful and engaging. Titanforging is the exact opposite of all of those things.
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To each their own. But time to obtain something is effort, just as difficulty to obtain something is effort. Sounds fair to me
That has nothing to do with Warforging/Titanforging, but yeah it may not be fun.
I would say the majority of players want to be rewarded for their efforts–which is why RNG is so universally hated. If there were a clear path to gear progression, with a standard chance of getting specific gear in specific ways, I think most people would be delighted. They would know exactly what they had to do to get the gear they need.
Some gear forging is fine if Blizzard really can’t help themselves from doing it, but the harder content needs to always forge higher than the easier content, and the easier content rewards need to never be better than harder content rewards–with or without forging.
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As you said: To each their own.
This is basically it. People want to feel -rewarded-. Titanforging isn’t rewarding unless you get -lucky-. That’s the biggest problem and that’s why TF itself is a horrid system for both casuals and hardcore players.
Would you rather get randomly lucky and have a random item TF from a world quest or a world boss or would you rather spend 2-3 weeks building up currency to upgrade/buy a piece of gear that won’t be replaced for a while because TF doesn’t exist?
That’s also another issue with tf. The upgrades you get won’t last long because blizzard has to keep increasing item level on gear to keep up with TFs. Your gear will most likely be replaced by a few TFs here and there if you get lucky. This makes gear feel soulless and unengaging.
There’s so many issues this system brings it’s seriously not worth having it in the game. A deterministic system will reward everyone for there efforts and allow people to control their gear, titanforging is the opposite.
There are other ways to reward players for going back and doing older content with their friends. This isn’t it blizzard.
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I loved upgrading my gear through currency. I remember the different difficulties gave different amounts of currency, too, so you could estimate how long it would take based on what content you did. And then you could trade in a fully upgraded piece for an even better one to upgrade some more.
Why the hell did Blizzard change that?
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TF system gives me another reazon to log in.
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I don’t think we have gear in world content for that reason. I think it is more to allow people choices of progression paths, which I think it is good thing.
I mostly do world content. If my max ilvl from world content was 370 I would have absolutely nothing to do. I am not going to go do raids or run mythic dungeons for gear. If I really cared about gear I would have been doing those all along because it is faster to gear up doing mythic pluses and dungeons than via world content.
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