But isn’t there also an issue feeling disappointed again and again? For me WF/TF ruined enjoyment over gearing my characters. Does that mean it is bad for the game? I do not know. I do know it doesn’t work for me. Just another nail in the coffin of my 14yrs of WoW.
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I’ve played since the early days. Over time, 99% of all gear gets vended or disenchanted. I can’t get excited about any gear. War/Titanforge doesn’t make it any less so. Even when I was raiding, hundreds of pieces were disenchanted during raids over time. For me, gear has never been an exciting reward.
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Thanks dad.
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I appreciate your presence.
I don’t like the titanforging system because numerous times (over 10…they were the reason I unsubbed for a couple months) it made getting a piece of gear I needed feel bad because it didn’t forge.
One time a friend and I both got the same staff from a key, but his was warforged. This made me just feel bummed about mine.
I’d say my biggest problem is that I have no desire to raid at a high level anymore because of the potential for just getting lucky in a key (for most slots at least, I know azerite pieces and weapons are generally always going to be highest from mythic - to be fair I haven’t raided at a high level in several xpacs, but I have the time now and no desire) When my druid got a 380 trinket from an M2 (before 8.1) I wasn’t happy - I was pissed. That kills my desire to progress in raids. Sure this is an unbelievably rare occurrence, but it messes with the psychology.
Whenever I try to think about how the game would be if titanforging was just ripped out I also wonder how obsolete certain areas (lower keys for example) would become and that worries me. Unfortunately I have nothing else to comment on in that area.
Overall, gear feels meaningless to me. If acquisition is going to stay this way, I think there needs to be more evergreen reasons to run content. Cosmetic rewards for example, things we can work toward that aren’t rendered useless after a patch.
This was scrambled, and I’m sorry. Sort of in a rushing typing this.
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I know it’s an unpopular opinion on these forums but for me WF/TF and tertiary stats are honestly the best thing to ever happen to gearing.
They’re just a nice little bonus, not something you “need”. I think a lot of the problem is people’s obsession to mark off a checklist of BiS. Attaining true BiS is almost impossible now, which I think is good for the health of the game in the long run.
Gear has always involved RNG and it’s vastly improved (I’d say too much, tbh) in recent years compared to how we started.
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Guess they can never recapture that feeling you got when that first epic dropped for you while leveling in Vanilla or when you completed your first raid set and/or dungeon set.
I was a Paladin then and I got to say. It felt great wearing Lawbringer and Judgement. You just felt good and invested in your character. Unlike today. Think the other day I scrapped like 30 pieces of Azerite gear trash I let build up because it wasn’t worth my time to do it.
You know maybe Vanilla will bring me back. Maybe it will not. I do know the game was for me at least far more enjoyable when compared to what we have to play today in BfA.
And i am a complete 180 from that thought process. I remember the joy i use to get in getting something i worked hard for. I remember in cata killing the Ascendant Council and getting a Glaciated Helm. It was something i had wanted and had received through work. Yes that helm is long since gone but i remember the joy i felt in that moment. It will stick with me far longer than any TF handout ill ever receive. That was killed for me in Legion when TF came about. Nothing means anything anymore because anything can TF into max ilvl loot and when I get something i want my first thought is “did it wf/tf?” and if the answer is no i feel disappointment that i got the worst version of an item that i can get
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Maybe. I didn’t finish my Tier 1 set until we were well into Cataclysm. I never finished Tier 2 or Tier 3. That is what I get for being a team player and filling holes for the guild when they needed it. When you’re always changing characters so everyone gets to raid, you don’t get gear. The one thing I wanted from Vanilla was the Aurastone Hammer. It looked cool. I got it while soloing the raid during Mists.
90% of my completed sets are PVP sets. I think I am missing three seasons. I bought all the sets I have with Marks of Honor.
This depends on the loot system your guild uses. Several of my previous guilds used EPGP, which was extremely fair and had alt functionality build in.
Personally I agree with tertiary stats, I think they are a nice way that players can get a bonus that doesn’t generally affect their gear in an adverse way, since they are all utility benefits.
I’m not sure that it’s necessary though for WF/TF, you say about the obsession of checking off a BiS checklist is unhealthy and being unable to achieve BiS is better, however in my opinion how many people actually were at that stage where they are getting full BiS?
I’m going to imagine that it is a considerably small number of players, so having a system that affects the entire player base for that purpose really doesn’t seem right to me.
I’m sure that someone else could probably find it, but there are studies on the effects of having a goal as opposed to a continually moving goal posts. From what I recall, not having a set goal post (ie not having something potentially achievable) actually has negative psychological affects.
but after you got that helm how exciting was it for you to kill that boss again? Maybe there was another item? Maybe there wasn’t? At least now there is a small chance it might forge while helping your guildies get their own loot. Maybe you even get it to titanforge and you get to walk around with it looking like a badass for the majority of another tier. The wf/tf system fills a gap imo that would otherwise make a raid tier quickly run out of steam for me while I help to gear the rest of my guildies
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Something of note with item upgrades. Whilst I’m not onboard with WF/TF, especially when relating to an (essentially) uncapped system. I actually praise tertiary stats (not sockets) for their affect on the loot system.
I think tertiary stats are a really nice, healthy way to add potential bonuses to an item without it directly impacting gameplay.
They are fun to receive and you are happy for them, however it’s not going to stop you from getting upgrades from content, and it’s not something that changes the goal posts of progression, are people aren’t going to be disappointed if they don’t get the upgrade, even if someone else does.
Because ultimately it’s utility. So it’s just nice.
I would personally like to see more gear upgrades be of this design where they provide enjoyment upon receival whilst not touching upon balance.
I’m not exactly sure where, but I’m sure that there would be other healthy additions to that system that could be beneficial. Potentially minor CDR on utility spells for instance.
Not game breaking if a DH can dispel 0.5s sooner, but could be nice.
Yes i still enjoyed the fight. But that moment was what i remember
Never have i felt “like a badass” for getting a TF. I dont feel anything when it happens. Nothing i do merits that reward, its just dumb luck.
For me WF/TF kills the gap. My guild just got into heroic last night and for the most part ive outscaled the majority of the items in that raid. There was no gap, and now there is no rewards for me throughout that raid. If anything it has accelerated me running out of steam by making content worthless before i even take part in it.
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Or potentially it warforges and then the next tier boss that they kill drops the new helmet but they can’t equip it because it is now worse than their old one?
Realistically though, should the raids be done for the gear? Or should they be done because they are enjoyable?
Spicy may have got the helm from the boss eventually, but how many attempts did that take? With the current system it’s a lot more common to get gear, so your situation stands true of the forging.
But that is why gear matters less overall, it is so easily accessible.
In todays game they could quite easily get that helm from completing 4 mythics during dungeon week and it would also be Heroic and potentially an upgrade.
Can you imagine how they would have felt attempting week after week to get the helm (or potentially not even killing the boss but working them on progression) only to have the helm given to them for doing fairly trivial content (for them).
I think that would be pretty damn deflating in my opinion.
half of those tertiary stats are useless with speed (only in large amount) and Indestructible being the only useful one. you might as well scrap the whole system together at that point.
I totally understand. The issue is worse with normal.
We have been putting in a few hours a couple of times a week with our small guild, usually only ~ 10 people per raid, progressing through normal.
We’ve pretty tight schedules so most weeks end up being clearing up to our progression point.
However every single member of the guild averages over 385 ilvl, the content we are clearing.
Some of our members are even around 393, with one of them receiving a 425 ring from their +7 weekly.
We literally do the content because we want to and we have fun messing around together. If we were doing it for the gear we wouldn’t be doing it at all.
They aren’t useless. They just don’t affect your character as much as free bonus item upgrades or a socket you can drop +40 main stat in.
Leech and avoidance can very much be useful for both PvP and any solo/world content. Speed and indestructible are just generically good.
It’s not to say that values can’t be scaled either. If WF/TF wasn’t an additional upgrade I can’t imagine why tertiaries couldn’t give slightly more leech or speed instead.
I understand where you are coming from but for me; my guild is heroic and a few mythic each tier, we usually have to clear norm a few times to down the harder bosses on heroic before moving onto the easier mythic kills.
Currently I no longer need anything from norm but a few guildies do so we normally kill the first 2/3 of the raid on normal for gear. With wf/tf I want to bring my main because something might forge for me and I might actually get an item I want, or I can always trade something I don’t want to speed the guild up as a whole
Unfortunately the majority of my guild is in the same boat as me. If i had to do old content to help someone of course i would gladly, but when you have a raid full of people who have out geared the content before taking part in it…idk, a carrot on a stick can only keep me moving forward for so long
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I’m not a fan of the warforge/titanforging system because I liked being able to feel like I had reached an endpoint where I felt like I had completed a raid tier. Between this and the azerite grind, it feels like there is no completion. I’m a firm believer that less is more and when the only sources of the best gear came from raids and they could only roll at one item level with on mods, I could just show up to raids and then spend the rest of my time in game doing what I wanted without feeling like it was holding back my character progression. Sometimes I would farm, or pvp, or go work on a reputation. But now if I want to remain competitive, I have to pvp each week, do a mythic + dungeon each week, do my islands each week, do all of my daily boxes. If I don’t do these things, my character falls behind in progression relative to others who do. This is on top of already raiding for gear. And even then if I do something else I feel like I could be doing something to potentially improve my character instead and it feels like I’m sacrificing something. I know that I’m not being forced to do these things but it feels like the game is set up to force me to play as much as possible to remain competitive instead of being able to do that with far less work and spend the rest of the time doing other things in game that I enjoy.
With this system, getting a piece of loot doesn’t always feel exciting because you see it for what it could have been. When you get a base piece and it doesn’t roll anything extra, it feels bad because you’re not getting the best item you could be even though you might be doing the hardest content in the game.
On the topic of master loot, I believe that it needs to come back. I’ve been on both ends of having good luck with personal loot and bad luck with it. While the good luck feels good, it makes normal luck feel bad and bad luck feel worse. During Antorus, I had incredible luck with loot getting a lot of really big titanforged items. During Uldir, I didn’t see a piece of personal loot in mythic (outside of bonus rolls because they have bad luck protection) until our first Zul kill. This is incredibly frustrating and not fun when you feel like you have no control. With master loot, I felt that loot was always going to where it helped the guild the most and I knew that it would be spread out fairly meaning that I would get some items and so would everyone else. Some guilds are now forcing all items that can be traded to be traded and master looted out. This is effectively a sort of workaround to the system that was removed.
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