It’d be better than people just quitting when the tier is cleared. A lot of people don’t feel the need to to grind for a bunch of titanforged gear that is largely obsolete by the time the next raid comes out. It’s another example of Blizzard over-solving problems to the point of diluting incentives in the game.
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The whole concept of TF/WF just means there’s less emphasis on the actual gameplay, and more emphasis for the slot machine after the gameplay.
There comes a point where you must question whether or not you’re playing the game because it’s genuinely fun, or if you’re playing it just to pull that slot machine lever. It took me a while to realize that the only reason I was playing anymore was for the latter, and that was the source of all my angst with the game, so I haven’t logged in and actually played since some time in November IIRC. The gameplay just isn’t satisfying anymore. I’ll keep watching, and come back when it is.
Until then, I have other games to play where the loot is nothing more than a cherry on top.
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Bornakk, I logged in just to say that, while I personally don’t necessarily agree with your views regarding WF/TF items, I appreciate how much discussion you’re trying to facilitate on this topic. It’s really nice to see a Blue stick around in a thread, instead of replying once and seemingly disappearing, especially on topics like this. I think a lot of us would like to see more of this interaction in the future.
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the problem is that people don’t view WF/TF as a bonus and instead view it as a necessity. The gear you get from the content you do is designed for its base item level to be good enough to be an upgrade and help you complete that content and move on to higher content if you get enough.
If you get a WF/TF, it’s a bonus. ![:man_shrugging:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/man_shrugging.png?v=6" ":man_shrugging:")
Warforging doesn’t bother me as we’ve had similar systems in the past during MoP/WoD, Titanforging as it is isn’t something I enjoy. Very often does it feel like that you are ever BIS, and that you could always be better. The carrot on a stick mentality accompanied by Titanforging just isn’t fun, since getting that carrot is going to be a very slim chance.
What I suggest, or at least what I think would be a much better system - is reintroducing valor and removing Titanforging altogether.
Imagine this, you get a piece of 400 loot from heroic. It’s not 405 or 410 due to warforging, but you could invest valor points into that piece to warforge it. That way you can still get the 410 piece you desire, and still feel good for what you receive. If it does drop WF, then you save yourself some valor points. Valor points could also be used to add a socket or tertiary stat to a piece, so you could keep upgrading that piece you really like without just running the content endlessly hoping for it to be that way. Through this these bonus upgrades on items would be just that, a bonus. They’d save you time, but you’d just be fine if you put the resources into it.
Capping WF at +10 item levels also makes it so that the next difficulty of content (Normal -> Heroic -> Mythic) is always an upgrade. Mythic raiders will always have at least +5 item levels over the most geared of heroic raiders, instead of everybody just having random TF pieces that puts the piece of gear a tier ahead of where you got it from.
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Very much agreed. While we have had some back and forth here Bornakk, I absolutely appreciate the time you are taking to communicate with us.
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My guild doesn’t do that, even though there is a number of players who just gear up and quit, there is enough people to continue to raid almost continuously throughout the expansion.
People gearing up and quitting though always happened, some people just set a certain goal for themselves and once they hit it they are done.
Titanforging gives people who like raiding, who like playing this game more reason to do so.
my mage whom I raid on is ilvl 400… my dh who never step a foot in organized raiding is 395 from wq, low m+ and world bosses…
how can you all not see the problem? today I did the darkshore on my mage… got a ilvl 400 staff better than the raid weapon I was using (better secondaries) I was not really excited… that’s a problem…
thinking back, the most fist pumping feeling I’ve gotten this tier was getting my tier tmog shoulders off mythic avatar
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You have been extremely lucky then because I have 6 120s who run the same content and I do it daily (aside from not running mythic plus) and the highest is 384 now.
Your DH has mythic plus 10 pieces as well. I personally don’t consider that low, to me under 5 is low.
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There is plenty to do, but the concern shouldn’t be that we have stuff to do, it should be that we want to do them.
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Out of all the foolish phony leet crap you posted this is just the most idiotic of all! Let alone the the fact you think ilvl and skill are the same thing. You can buy high ilvl gear runs. You can’t buy skill! And I WOULD RATHER SKILLED PLAYERS over high ilvled players. But good luck with how you think. I hope it works out for you.
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Okay, I get those points, but that doesn’t mean they can’t rethink the system. There is more than one way to reward people for reclearing raids. Layered RNG doesn’t respect players’ time as much as a more deterministic system would.
I love raiding and M+, but the residuum system has incentivized me way more to make sure I get my +10 in every week than the randomness of season 1 did. And with every boss in BoD dropping Azerite gear, I feel more inclined to raid… because of residuum. One layer of RNG - golden.
Titanforging would probably be a lot better if there wasn’t a gear reset every tier. No system is independent. Ion brought up how they don’t want to bring in PvP vendors because of the effect it would have on PvE gearing. I really think they should consider the effect season 3 is having on the incentives in season 2.
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I have more then once. I really only play now for gear ilvl. Sure WF/TF are fun to get for a player like me, but honestly I feel no actual sense of accomplishment getting it. I literally won the lottery. I got lucky and someone else may have not. So by creating a system of winners and losers that is not controlled by skill but instead luck Blizzard has created an entire system of resentment over players who get Titanforged gear.
It is creating a negative response system and causes players feel less accomplishment for getting ilvl like it used to be.
your ilvl should be a representation of your progress in the game, not a representation of how lucky you were with WF/TF
Sure you can. You get all the gear from Mythic or M+(10) and there you go. Except, you just have the wrong way of thinking about it… “I need Titanforged in every slot to be BiS”.
Here is my attempt at a compromise/solution here:
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Keep WF/TF but only +5 or +10, no higher. Max is +10 on Heroic raid gear, so right now the highest would be 410 from 400 gear content.
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Remove tertiary stats and sockets off gear. Sockets should be baseline on specific pieces of gear.
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Make it so Mythic raid, and the highest PvP rated gear cant WF or TF. Instead make a currency you get from these activities that allow you to augment tertiary stats to the gear received from that activity. These also need to be far expanded past avoidance/speed.
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Related a bit to 3, but make it so professions have their own augments they can add to gear (limit 1 per toon). Also make it so professions can +5 WF one piece of gear per toon.
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Make it so gear has flavor and usefulness to the content you got the gear from. Make world quest/boss sets that give 50% faster flight paths and 20% more reward from world quests. Make dungeon sets that allow you to reset lust debuff in dungeons, or stop an M+ timer for 30 sec. Bring back raid tier sets that have extra bonuses when in that specific raid (like reorigination array). These are just random ideas off the top of my head and can obviously be better but you get the idea.
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Gear shouldn’t be the only form of rewards. Vendors are good, like why isn’t there a hydro/tidal core vendor where I can buy crafting materials like the blood vendor from Legion? This kind of stuff makes not getting gear more bearable because you feel like you can still work towards something even if you don’t get gear (even if it’s just leveling a profession or making gold).
I know everything I have here isn’t perfect, but I feel like it would be a much better system than we have now without completely removing WF/TF.
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Why do you feel you need to do all of the content? You can do the content that you enjoy and you will get rewarded for it. Yes, there are other avenues to gear up and it makes sense to do a bunch of them if you are pushing content, but how come it’s not optional based on your play style/time?
I’m going to focus on this for one second, in context of the Azerite system. Mythic raiding right now requires a 38 Heart of Azeroth level to unlock the 3rd tier on shoulders. It’s 48 Heart level to unlock the +5 ilvl upgrade. A player who attempted to focus on Mythic Raiding, without doing Island Expeditions, Emissaries etc., would not even be at this level. They may not even have a Heart level high enough to unlock the 2nd tier - but I haven’t crunched the math on THAT.
This sort of thing absolutely makes Island Expeditions, Emissaries etc., non-optional. And considering the nature of Island Expeditions and Emissaries, which would be incredibly trivial difficulty to a Mythic raider, but time-consuming, it really shouldn’t be hard to understand why that would be frustrating, especially to a player with more limited time.
To take it back to Titanforging a bit, consider the Mythic raider trying to advance his gear to conquer Mythic bosses. Heroic Raiding offers ilvl 400 items. AFK’ing a Warfront once per cycle offers ilvl 400 items. Emissaries and invasions are offering 385 items. Doing Freehold on Mythic-0 x4 during BFA dungeon weekly event offered ilvl 400 Heroic raid gear. All of these can Titanforge. Short of the raiding that this player is already doing, these sources have the capacity to even exceed what the player can do to prepare for the raid, or even the reward gained within the raid itself. I’m limiting to these because the chances required to hit 400-415 aren’t too absurd. That is to say, discounting the idea of a 355 Blue titanforging up to 410.
I feel like you’d almost have to be deliberately obtuse not to see how this doesn’t feel nearly as optional to such a player, especially given that raiding itself is not guaranteed for rewards, and not guaranteed for good rewards. Not only could you go for a tier struggling to get a weapon drop, raid loot is often limiting to the point of having extremely bad trinkets (G’huun) or, unique to this expansion, bad Azerite traits that lose out even to vastly inferior ilvl items in that slot (e.g., a 370 trinket that DOESN’T titanforge, but then a 400 trinket that did would be so much better).
Hypothethical here: If for example, Titanforging was limited to +15 ilvl, and Darkshore Warfront quest was offering a 370 reward (which could Titanforge TO 385), do you feel like a player at the 330/340(?) level who would queue for it and find it reasonable content would NOT find it rewarding or worthwhile enough? Assuming it were engaging to that player, of course.
Maybe there are a few things that have slipped under the radar for developers. Maybe they aren’t aware how many Azerite traits are terrible, and how there are limited options in certain content. Maybe they aren’t aware how many raid trinkets are terrible. Maybe they aren’t aware how close extremely trivial or boring content (IE’s, Warfronts, WQs ) are in rewards to extremely endgame (Mythic Raids, high Mythic+). I think this last one is probably the more significant, personally, especially the worst example like the Tortollan WQs.
One thing I think has definitely slipped away from the developers is focusing on engaging content. It feels like there is a lot of emphasis on creating trivial/boring content (like Tortollan WQs), and then bumping rewards to get players to do them more to justify having created them. Titanforging simply adds on to make that more annoying. I like the concept of WQs as a way to encourage people to explore parts of the world more, e.g. highlight this random NPC encounter inside a cave they may not have just noticed while questing. I abhor the execution of things like Kirin Tor, Tortollan, and Champions of Azeroth WQs, which are very generic, cut-and-paste, low-interest affairs that then truly feel like a boring rep grind unlocking rewards.
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There is more than just raiders to think about though. I know for some of you, you don’t care if anyone else plays this game but your content is expensive to make, there needs to be a reason for people who don’t raid to log in as well.
At the start of this patch I thought that was the end of the game for me because the world content gear had no upgrades for me. Sure I may not need gear but I need some reason to keep logging in.
Bornakk, warforging and titanforging has been out of hand for quite some time. Players do not agree that the system lends much at all to the gaming experience. Players thought that warforging was limited to one notch in “Mists of Pandaria”, but Blizzard keeps pushing this broken system on us. Is it to capture and hold new players more quickly? We truly want it gone.
Many players want to reach a point of completion, as well as feel the accomplishment of finally obtaining what they’ve been chasing. These players still remember their first heroic drop in ICC, or seeing a “Cunning of the Cruel” drop in Dragon Soul. And just that was enough. There was no chance of seeing a brand-new player in a pug get a titanforged version with a socket to dash your good feelings.
It is not acceptable to allow such a narrow difference between hardcore players and casual ones. Hardcore players earn better gear, and casual players do not. There are very few reasons to allow casual players to reach the power of players in mythic guilds, because there is no need for the additional power in their everyday play. Blizzard’s insistence on leveling the playing field, especially with forced personal loot, needs to be overhauled.
Blizzard should be doing a better job of living up to players’ standards. We have been complaining for years about the system, and it is time for it to go. Our classes being neutered is a big deal, but titanforging is much worse. Please take our comments to heart, and route them to appropriate development members. Do not allow the next expansion be as much of a letdown as Battle for Azeroth.
2 Likes
Speak for yourself. I truly want it to stay. I like titanforging. I liked it when I was raiding. My horde guild which is raiding mythic already as well as my other guild raiding heroic, has people very often get excited about a piece of titanforged gear. Removing that excitement won’t improve the game for those people.
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You know how when you open a ticket in game and after your GM interactions you get that little “how’d I do?” survey? Why isn’t that system expanded upon to present these problems to the community and take an actual look at the numbers?
Load into the game and see the little GM ticket response thing, click it and up pops a small questionnaire. For this WF/TF situation the questions could be based around:
- Do you raid?
- Do you do Mythic+?
- How pleased are you with the Forging system?
For me it would be: No, No, and a solid I Don’t Care out of 10 ![:slight_smile:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
But it would definitely get you the actual numbers you need to address the situation instead of dealing with constant debates about them on the forums.