Id wager that for that type of player its happening even quicker now. If you have outgeared the raid you are in because of the constant barrage of free upgrades wont you be more prone to quitting earlier than if you had to grind through weeks and weeks of that content?
1 Like
Whatever just look at the character profile online and you can see what they have done.
Surely thereās not enough stuff that I feel is either worth my time or I want to do. I donāt even have any interest in raiding anymore, and never really was interested in M+.
Upgrading items with valor was the superior system.
This one is purely RNG play-time padding.
Theyāre not even trying to be subtle about this stuff anymoreā¦
4 Likes
It really does. But of course from a casuals perspective, it doesnāt because you never had it until Titanforging became a thing and ruined the entire loot system.
I have. I donāt care about titan / warforge. When I was raiding, once I got the basics, that was it. Doing the same boss for a chance at a slightly higher ilevel isnāt fun to me and is just boring.
I would prefer real things to do honestly. Unlocking looks like we had with artifacts. Unlocking transmogs, titles, mounts. Something unique and interesting. Something I havenāt done a billion times in hopes of a rng proc at a higher version of what I already have.
8 Likes
I love it when people attempt to use the āno lifeā card. Yes me earning something should be worth more than you getting lucky, thatās the bottom line. Titanforging should have NO place getting as high as it does for someone only doing a Normal raid or LFR raid
4 Likes
I just want to put my two cents into the conversation.
I think Warforging and Titanforging are bad for the game. I understand the idea it might be exciting to think any item you ever get could upgrade, but as many people have stated, this doesnāt have any form of restriction. Doing low-difficulty content should not give rewards oh high-difficulty content simply because of rng. Yes, extreme titanforging rolls arenāt the most common thing, but that doesnāt make them okay. Getting 30 or more bonus item levels on a piece of gear for no extra effort devalues items of that natural item level. Doing LFR, which is almost a brain-dead activity, and receiving an item from a mythic raiding difficulty is unacceptable. As others have stated, in previous expansions there was a cap on titanforging which prevented this sort of thing from happening.
So with lower-difficulty activities giving higher-difficulty rewards, it can potentially do the exact opposite of what you want it to. If you get a good titanforge, it could overpower the gear you would want to get from the content you are doing. If you do an LFR and get a 400 ilvl piece because of titanforging, it now prevents you from actually getting upgrades for that piece of gear in the normal or potentially even heroic content that you would want to be doing. Now this leads back into the original point, I just got heroic loot from content significantly easier. What motivation is there to do that harder content now? Simple statistics means you will eventually gear yourself out with minimal effort.
The last thing I wanted to bring up is simple satisfaction. To me, Titanforging does not feel satisfying. This bonus, whether its item level or a socket, was not achieved, it was handed out. I did nothing. A roll of the dice determined whether or not it was put onto the piece of gear I picked up. That doesnāt feel rewarding at all. I put in the effort, however great or small, to get the original item, nothing else. I am not saying a huge grind is necessary to get an upgrade, but the upgrade should still be gained through personal effort.
2 Likes
Mmm. See I have multiple issues with forging.
First off it fights against the Forced PL system. We had multiple situations where for instance our warrior went 10 weeks with a Heroic ilvl weapon because the one that drops from M Taloc wouldnāt drop for them. And we couldnāt trade it to him because of the already established trade restriction of not allowing trade items that are an ilvl upgrade and people that already had the weapon got it to forge and then couldnāt even trade it to him. Our HPally and 1 of our tanks that jumped on their warrior alt got a M Taloc weapon before our warrior dps got his. Thatās a massive problem.
Second thing is it plays a part in a severe ilvl bloat. We just did an ilvl squish from 1000 and are almost already back to 500. At this rate every other expansion weāll need to do a stat squish and that just makes no sense and would feel extremely awkward.
Third is that you will never achieve your best in slot no matter how hard you work at it. And thatās just depressing to be quite honest. Itās like the gearing system is banking on players want to complete their characters but will never be able to do so but has that carrot on the stick for a āchanceā to get the piece to drop and then a āchanceā for it to forge with a āchanceā to have a gem slot with a āchanceā to have a tertiary stat. Itās just way too much RNG to bank on. The game felt so much better when the only RNG that needed to happen was the thing dropping and the anticipation leading up to it. Now upgrades can just happen whenever and instead of something that was built up over time with achieving your own personal goal whatever it was gearwise, it just ends up being a āoh hey coolā moment. Which puts me on track for the next point.
Fourth is that upgrades can come from anywhere. It feels pretty dumb to me personally that I can go in and kill Mythic Mythrax and get a piece to drop and then do an Invasion and get a 385 titanforge with good stats. Which happened to me by the way. It gets in the way of trying to map out what your goals are and what means your are going to do to achieve them. Itās part of the reason why people are so hellbent on trying to get PvP vendors to return.
āI get x amount of Conquest each week. Within a few weeks after the season starts I will be able to get my weapon.ā
Seeing the goal, mapping it out, and then achieving it. Thatās what used to be part of the system and it was traded forā¦wellā¦a slot machine.
I get that the idea was that PvE players would get their BiS and then possibly take a break but in my opinion, that was because they didnāt have an outlet. But now that we have Mythic + there is no reason for that because that place is an opportunity for players not only to get gear, but to step feet first into the water and test out things like trinkets.
I know this is getting a little off track here but I think the mistake was not growing Mythic + into something similar with PvP seasons. Theyāre even referred to as āMythic + Season 2ā. Could of had a system that built on the āKeystone Masterā from Legion and set goals for players to achieve that would reward mounts, xmog, tabards, enchants the list goes on.
But to just touch on the main topic again, the issue for me was that with the RNG there was a level of control from the players. With raids we had to have the item drop, and then the RL or council would designate loot to the players on their team that it was BiS for. In PvP we had the vendors. And now that both of those things are gone and the new systems donāt answer that concern, we are left with a complete 100%, our hands thrown up in the air, RNG gearing system. That dictates to us when weāre worthy for the big upgrades, instead of making the path to achieve them.
7 Likes
There is more to lifeā¦
One group thinks that TF/WF leads to exciting āwoahā moments.
The other thinks that TF/WF leads to disappointment when loot does not Titanforge.
Both groups are correct.
Since the chance for a titanforge is so low, it is fair to say that disappointment happens much more frequently than the excitement.
Is there any problem in my logic?
1 Like
Personally I enjoyed the method of only warforging gear not titanforge and using valor to upgrade the gear.
Tough question. Sometimes just farming old raids or leveling lowbies is enough for me. The problem comes in when you guys try to force content at us that we really donāt want to do. Iāve said in many threads that I preferred the WoD model to BFA, because I could raid with my group every week and I didnāt feel forced to log in if I didnāt want to.
With BFA you guys have a lot to do on paper. But you have to bribe people to do the content they donāt want to do by over inflating rewards. Like if someone just enjoys raiding, why canāt they just raid once they have the gear for it? Why does the PvPer have to farm islands and world quests for AP when they donāt want to?
To answer your questionā¦ yes, for the first time I feel like right now there is not enough rewarding and fulfilling content in the game. I feel like there are very few things to work towards, very few goals you can set for yourself, and every time you log in youāre basically just inserting another quarter in the slot machine and hoping for the best.
3 Likes
Be happy they got gear.
I suggested a fix for it that would leave it in +5 +10 and then +15 ilvl would be the max. Also bring back valor points to upgrade 2/2 for current gear and 4/4 for old gear.
We will never see a return to valor points, Ion has said so.
There is indeed and 10 years people realized this. Sadly, people have decided to prioritize online interactions over spending time with loved ones and friends. They stare at their phones to the exclusion of the world around them and God knows how long itās been since they gazed at the starry night sky or wandered a windswept beach. I fear for what we have become and what weāve wrought upon this world.
Show me on the subscription chart for BC or Wrath exactly where this happened. Iāll wait.
3 Likes
I donāt know 1 PvPer that said āWell that was fun! Iām fully Conquest geared! Guess itās time to quitā
9 Likes
So, hereās my take on this. Iāve complained personally about the WF/TF system in private/discord along with the roulette feel and overwhelming amount of āgearing upā options. I have raided everywhere from casual to competitive aim-for-first 4/wk craziness. I have played pug only as well.
First, titanforging is simply too strong. It is odd to be rewarding for doing āeasierā content repetitively instead of higher content. You can do a world quest and obtain 410+ gear from a 385 base. If titanforge was capped at a +1 level (e.g. +10 and socket) and warforge was changed to tertiary stats only (speed, avoidance, leech, could be expanded) it would still be a cool surprise.
Secondly, WF/TF is not necessarily a problem in isolation. There are simply too many sources to get gear that, combined with possible titanforge, you can feel an obligation or compulsion to do. Even with M+ dungeons only, you can simply run the same dungeon over and over to get a WF/TF item. In fact, some raiders do this in LFG. You can essentially run m+ hundreds of times to brute force an upgrade equivalent or better than a mythic raid drop.
Then, combine these problems with the roulette nature. Besides Titan Residuum, thereās no obvious ābad luck protection.ā
So thereās too many sources of what could potentially be ābisā gear that is inherently grindable (and we all know WoW players can and will grind) while being superior to mythic raid gear (either because of the stats or proc or whatever reasonā¦ btw raid trinkets feel underwhelming). Now, this used to be offset a little by tier gear because set bonuses could not be replaced, but thatās a minor tangent Iād rather not get too deeply into.
Most people will talk about how this devalues raiding. However, I think thatās missing the mark. This seems to be seen as āI donāt feel the same glory of achieving a boss kill that few had before me.ā Gaming is, by its nature, a competitive endeavor. If youāre not in a top end raid gear (and most arenāt), then you are probably pugging heroics or normals or m+. You are judged entirely by your past performance (judged by third party sites) and, mostly importantly, your item level. Especially as a non-meta choice (again, not to get bogged down into meta preferences). The counteraction to that is to have bigger or overwhelming numbers by doing more stuff. However, when you do that and others, by way of large numbers or luck, are getting a competitive item level by chance. It feels like youāve worked hard for essentially nothing and, to exaggerate, might as well just go fish until blizzard reworks your class or you casually get the catch up numbers.
Certainly thereās more to it. I think those are three big factors, though. A distant fourth being LFR/normal. Iām by no means an expert at game design, but I think people want to feel like they are progressing, even if itās a slow moving bar, relatively to others for the time and effort put in. People arenāt comparing themselves to +25 key runners or Limit/Method. Theyāre saying āWell, my enhancement shaman doesnāt have shroud and enough random rogues applied to the Tal Dagor+10 with an inflated ilvl so fml.ā They are looking forward to a drop, but with a roulette chance at titanforge it feels like a desperation look.
How would I change it? Iām by no means a game designer, but if I had a crack at it, Iād start by limiting mythic dungeon drops to 1 drop per dungeon per week INCLUDING m+. Then I would introduce a currency, as slow moving as it may be, to upgrade those drops in item level, capping at +2 or +3 tiers with increasing cost (this is similar to the upgrade tokens in Tanaan I guess?).
Then I would make the amount of currency drop relative to the key difficulty and not be farmable. I.e. a +5 key would drop 5 Credits. A +7 key would drop 7 Credits. Doing a +7 key after a +5 key would drop 2 Credits. If you repeat a +5 key, you get a Random Loot Bag (e.g. gold/craft mats/greens/whatever like the bonus bags. Some random small bonus for helping others). You can debate the balance here, time to upgrade, etc, but the goal is to reduce repetitive feeling while making a visible, even if painfully slow, way to upgrade. Iād also restrict what items this could be used on (only dungeon drops? Possibly less good items buyable with this currency like in TBC?)
Then Iād also cap Titanforge at +15 or +10/socket and move Warforge to Tertiary stats. Maybe introduce some extra tertiary stats like reduced falling damage. This way itās a nice bonus when you get one, but does not feel as game busting as +45 ilvl.
edit: I forgot to mention, the vast amount of āpossibilitiesā for bis gear via titanforge may be the cause of a feeling of lack of meaningful things to do in WoW. Thereās always SOMETHING to do. But itās a lot like playing the lottery in the current system. And anyone decent at numbers knows how that goes, seeing the sheer effort that may be needed for a jackpack, and feel exhausted by them.
Lastly, Iād like to commend the devs for what Iāve seen from datamines on Crucible. Adding unique effects to raid gear to make them stand out is definitely a step in the right direction to making raiding more prominent for gearing.
5 Likes
Yep! This RnG loot roller coaster and too many difficulty levels of content only succeeded in making me bored, tired, uninterested, and completely unmotivated to even go any further. I mean why bother. Your just going to hand out more catch up gear anyway that will make my effort pointless.
Do you get it? These systems are trash and have ruined my enjoyment. My sub is cancelled and once it expires I honestly donāt know when or if I will return this time. So sick of the same crap. You canāt cater to everyone. The fact that subs are the lowest ever should attest to that.
9 Likes
So you want less opportunities to get gear then ? I find that a little odd myself since I like the ability to pick and chose the content I do for upgrades and the more the number of choices the better for me.
In any case, this is where there are other players in the game comes in. That content isnāt necessarily aimed at you - it is there if you want it but if you donāt want to do it then just donāt.