As a mythic Raider, M+ player, and doing all my emissaries and warfronts and stuff, I would be 100% satisfied if 415 was the cap. Mythic raiding never WF/TF, and everything can WF/TF up to it. That would be better than a WQ item becoming a 425 and surpassing mythic raiding.
If that was the system, I’d have very little issue with it, personally.
There is a whole lot of people in this thread that care very much what others are getting.
here is one I just responded to.
I’m part of organized raiding as well (mythic for context). I don’t think anyone reasonable is asking Blizzard to ignore every other play style. Obviously these should be considered, but that also must include organized raiding, and since Legion I feel Blizzard is pretty deliberately ignoring the effects these systems have on organized raiding (and to your own detriment in my estimation, given the outrageous success of the World First race stream).
WF/TF is part of the loot system, as is the method of distribution/acquisition (Personal). These are not separate from each other, they are tied together and affect each other. Jeff Kaplan has said at some point when speaking about Overwatch that much of game design is all about trade-offs and interactions. Going off of that, perhaps it would be useful to discuss some of the trade-offs are here. Most if not all of us here in this thread (including me) are not game designers, but I don’t think that means we can’t try to approach the topic in a thoughtful manner.
First, some negative aspects of the current status quo:
Reduced, less defined structure of power progression. This blurs the lines between different types of content and different difficulties and makes them less distinct. I think this decreases the potential prestige of certain challenges because there are so many trivial ways outside of organizing that it trivializes organized-oriented challenges. This has the knock-on effect of making organized players feel obligated to do trivial (by comparison) content just to stay up-to-date.
Optimal gearing becomes much more complicated because there’s so many potential variables in gear to consider. A 425 forged piece of gear that is normally undesirable for a given spec can outclass the desirable piece at the base level. This is not always a pleasant experience.
This has the knock-on effect of making simming much more important than the pre-Legion days and I think makes careful thought and consideration of your gear options overwhelming for players not simming or otherwise very knowledgeable about a given spec.
Another knock-on effect here is that forged pieces oftentimes completely waste gear from bosses when progressing. It is so utterly frustrating to have someone get a repeat item that others could use but 5 item levels higher such that it is not trade-able while being a negligible upgrade for the one who got the item. Even worse is getting something else for the same slot that isn’t an upgrade but still isn’t trade-able due to arbitrary restrictions on weapon types and small item level intervals.
Yet another knock-on effect here is that I think the current systems and status quo severely limit the design space for both items and classes. Since there’s so many permutations and possibilities for gear, generic item level must be a decently effective method for choosing gear to use and as such specs cannot have too strong of a reliance on particular stats or effects, which I think makes gear and gear progression much more boring and less interesting.
Organizing into a group or guild becomes disincentivized especially outside of mythic raiding. The additional work and effort required to maintain a stable group or guild in a heroic or normal environment is pretty much not rewarded at all because there’s so many solo and trivial PuG options available that are either equivalent or beat normal and heroic rewards. There’s very little reason for players in these areas to not play and act as selfishly as possible, which I think damages social growth. There’s also very little to convince players to give a guild venture a real try when there’s so many other, much easier options available.
Current status quo systems can damage the feeling of player autonomy and volition. Titanforging can lead to situations where completion of the same task or challenge or activity of the same difficulty (such as say, Heroic Opulence) can beget drastically different rewards. I think this is probably where a lot of the “gear feels too random” complaints come from. You can do the same thing and get very different results from week to week. This leads to some players feeling like they have no control because the results feel very disconnected from the actions the player or group of players took. It’s the same boss on the same difficulty, but the item I got on the first kill is worse than the same one on the 5th kill, or the first item is equal to the power of the same item from a higher difficulty. It can feel like what the player chooses to do doesn’t matter because, as said above, the results can be very different.
Now, onto some of the positives:
Forging and Personal Loot gives solo-oriented players more reasons to continue returning and doing whatever it is that they want to do. This lets them keep up more in less stressful activities, and is probably helpful to people that have anxiety over getting into groups (especially larger groups) to continue progressing.
The current status quo systems can give less invested/serious players a sense of excitement in their usual activities.
The current systems can keep some content feeling relevant for longer.
The current systems can help returning or new players catch up quickly and stay up-to-date more easily.
Personal Loot can help more solo-oriented players feel safe when entering groups. This was already true however during Legion.
This is obviously not all-inclusive on either side here, but I suppose my primary argument after going through all I have in this post is that I feel very, very strongly that the negative consequences of the status quo systems do not outweigh the benefits in an MMO built on organized group content.
I think solutions should be looked at that offer other entire avenues for progressing that are not inherently tied to gearing and character power, things that offer more customization and things that players can build over time that don’t disrupt the structure of organized group content and its reward just to try to fit all playstyles onto a singular path. The current method is always going to have some players be the odd ones out in the worst ways possible.
Thank you for the time and effort you clearly put into this.
This is not true, if I was still subbed I would screen shot my bank to show you how many bracers I got off the first boss. The same bracer I got it 6 times in all different forms. Now do the math if you have personal loot and you just got the same bracer from a boss what are your chances of getting loot you actually need from another? Now you are depending on others charity for loot. With master looter for my guild we based loot given out on attendance and performance. Eventually everyone got what they needed and you didn’t have 6 of the same item given to you.
Very comprehensive. Is it outside the realm of possibility that playing a game you enjoy and killing bosses and achieving new things is the reward, and the loot is a tool to reach that reward? Not everybody thinks that way, and I am not saying that they should. I am just bouncing that possibility off the wall.
If the content is the reward over the loot then TF/WF are completely unnecessary yes?
Providing players with better tools.
Honestly I’m fine with gear sources being randomized, so there is that excitement after downing a fight. I prefer items themselves to be static. Knowing that I finished a gear set in a tier for whatever level content has more value to me than the never ending treadmill that is WF/TF, socket, and tertiary stats. Fully deterministic loot would be boring, but this RNG on top of RNG is not better it’s only different. Small differences wouldn’t be an issue, WF itself wouldn’t be bad.
A certain suspension of disbelief is of course required when playing games, but I still have problems accepting for example that a Lord Admiral’s Signet from normal Jaina should be different from that Lord Admiral’s Signet form normal Jaina. Of course two of the same ring could be made different from each other in small ways, like one is shinier or that one has some scratches (ie WF). But is it really the same ring if one is missing a gem or has has a quality that makes its wearer less likely to be hit? In that case the Jaina with the socketed avoidance ring really needs to introduce the other Jaina to her ring smith.
Fine. Then why give “tools” for content theyll never take part in? I dont expect mythic level “tools” for the lower level content i do
But they are prepared if they decide to try something new. Anyway, the achievement is eternal, the gear becomes irrelevant fairly quickly.
This has nothing to do with the long run or short run, if I see someone with TF/WF, I assume they got lucky, not that they spent countless hours trying to get it. NO ONE with a semblance of intelligence intentionally farms for WF/TF. Its much more fruitful to study and practice your class than it is to farm for gear when you don’t know how to play the class you’re farming for.
Forging isn’t a problem, its the psychological personal problem people have with others getting a specific gear. It is in no way like gambling, its more like the lottery at a smaller scale. People are just envious about others gear despite it having ZERO affect on their personal progression.
You can get prepared with much less…“tools”
gear to me always kind of felt like the currency to buy new content. I gear alts specifically to solo stuff and is why I main a hunter haha.
How do you know so many people enjoy this system? What was wrong with the old system where you could choose the loot setting, if a guild pugged after a certain amount of pugs the loot setting was forced to personal. If its a raid of guildmates why are they being forced into personal loot? The goal of a raid team is to improve the team as a whole. It is in the best interest of the group get everyone the gear they need to perform better.
To a degree yes. I can only advocate for what appeals to me. While we can do our best to try and persuade each other from our points of view we have no real reason at the end of the day to put someone else’s joy at the expense of your own.
WoW appealed to me at one point and his since gone away from designs and systems that I enjoy in favor of stuff that resembles aspects of Diablo, a game that I dislike. I have to accept moving on or trying to argue my points the best I can in hope of change. It does me no good to just sit in WoW and mindlessly do things.
This. Personally, gear is the means to doing content, not the reward in my opinion. From a game designer perspective though, not every player has this view. I’m fine if some people view loot progression as a reward in and of itself. The philosophy isn’t the issue here, it’s the how the philosophy informs the system. If you view loot as a reward, shouldn’t it be inherently deserved? Even when random, shouldn’t it in some way accurately reflect what you’ve achieved? Just things to ponder.
Getting loot is fun, and it should be, and I think it’s fine for loot be a fairly motivating factor. A lot of mythic raiding actually does take the view that the loot is a tool more than a reward for us, and I think this is where a lot of frustration also comes from. The game is throwing drills at us but what we really need is a hammer, belt sander and saw, but the guy that already has a belt sander keeps getting them, but they explode as soon as he tries to give it to anyone else.
I got a 370 tank trinket from Heroic Mythrax the first time we killed him. I pugged him every week trying to get a higher trinket or one with a socket. A lot of people do this. I used to run Mythic pugs for the first 2 bosses in Uldir and tons of plate dps with 385 weapons would try for a forge or socket on the Taloc weapon.
I think that different players probably need different levels of preparation.